HOW do you Teach TILT!

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr. T:

Careful here Mr. T…The PRIMARY(realizing it is not the only action involved) action that shifts weight and begins to move the pelvis forward and slightly open(the beginning of what one might call "rotation" is ABduction of the femur at the rear hip joint—this is the “sideways” Pressing” action I speak of..

The gluteus medius is the major muscle involved in hip joint (femoral) ABduction.
The gluteus medius is a short thick muscle at the sides of the hip.
This is the action that begins the shift in the direction of our target and is also what begins the Forward opening (aka “rotation”) of the pelvis.

I consider that a leg action—we are moving the femur. Some try to muddy the water(core/middle blah blah blah). But as long as you know that the Primary action is the ABduction of the femur by the muscles at the side of the hip, it really doesn’t matter.

It is as if saying the “LEG” pressing sideways is just too simple.

The gluteus medius is one of the muscles connecting the femur to the pelvis. Depending on usage, the result could either be abduction, external rotation or internal rotation.

The muscles connecting the femur to the pelvis can cause a twisting motion to the femur, and result in movement of the hips.

With the leg in neutral (straightened), the gluteus medius and gluteus minimus function together to pull the thigh away from midline, or "abduct" the thigh.

With the hip extended, the gluteus medius and gluteus minimus internally rotate the thigh.

see section on "Action"

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

If you look at your student Holly, she is now turning her back knee down-and-in prematurely compared to the pro hitters. Similar to what my daughter was doing. In the video you state that you are happy to see her back knee press sideways before the front foot lands. This back knee action that you are teaching Holly is what I'm now trying to coach out of my daughter.

IMO Holly's knee position at heel plant in her before swing is the right idea. This is one of those good natural actions that gets coached out of kids because of an obsession over the back knee driving down-and-in. I coached it out of my daughter by mistake because I didn't understand the importance of retaining pressure at the back foot during the transition as described by Sevam1.

Wellphyt ... IMO your daughter did not 'coil' her 'rear leg' in that swing ... and the knee action we see is more a forced Elvis-type movement. IMO that is why you are unhappy with your daughter's rear knee action in that swing.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt ... IMO your daughter did not 'coil' her 'rear leg' in that swing ... and the knee action we see is more a forced Elvis-type movement. IMO that is why you are unhappy with your daughter's rear knee action in that swing.

You certainly have a right your opinion. The advantage of having a kid actively playing the game is that I have someone that I have worked with for six years. No one else except me is responsible for her swing. I know what she has been taught from day one and I know how what she has been taught has affected her swing. My daughter is a living laboratory. I've worked with other kids but that experience doesn't come close to being the same. The familiarity I have with my daughter's swing is unmatched.

I have found that going left on purpose with the back leg; even if you coil, causes the pressure at the back foot to be given up prematurely. Hopefully some on here have taken the time to watch the Sevam1 youtube video. He clearly points out that the pressure created at the back foot created during the coil can be compromised if you go left with the back foot on purpose.

I agree that my daughter doesn't coil very well in this clip. The reason is that I accidentally coached it out of her by having her do thousands of drills where she strides to toe touch with her foot at a 45 degree angle. I even put tape down on the floor positioned at a 45 degree angle for her to land on. At the time I thought that was pretty clever. Looking back I now realize that doing that drill taught her to open up her front side as soon as she picked up her front foot, which is really bad and destroys front side resistance.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is a good example of what I've been trying to say. The weight shift is done with the hips as in a move-counter move, pivot, swivel; or however you wish to describe it.

[video]http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=18208525&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_18208525&v=3[/video]

 

[Bouldersdad]

You certainly have a right your opinion. The advantage of having a kid actively playing the game is that I have someone that I have worked with for six years. No one else except me is responsible for her swing. I know what she has been taught from day one and I know how what she has been taught has affected her swing. My daughter is a living laboratory. I've worked with other kids but that experience doesn't come close to being the same. The familiarity I have with my daughter's swing is unmatched.

I have found that going left on purpose with the back leg; even if you coil, causes the pressure at the back foot to be given up prematurely. Hopefully some on here have taken the time to watch the Sevam1 youtube video. He clearly points out that the pressure created at the back foot created during the coil can be compromised if you go left with the back foot on purpose.

I agree that my daughter doesn't coil very well in this clip. The reason is that I accidentally coached it out of her by having her do thousands of drills where she strides to toe touch with her foot at a 45 degree angle. I even put tape down on the floor positioned at a 45 degree angle for her to land on. At the time I thought that was pretty clever. Looking back I now realize that doing that drill taught her to open up her front side as soon as she picked up her front foot, which is really bad and destroys front side resistance.

I like your statement about a living Laboratory. There can be no greater measure of how successful we are as instructors than to have a daughter student that is a great hitter. Its says it all about what we teach and how it is relayed and used. Although being to close to our favorite student can have its drawbacks the positives if we are successful far outweigh the negatives.

Tim

 

[SBFAMILY]

Tim with her stats and success you should be proud.

 

[Mr T]

Mr. T:

Careful here Mr. T…The PRIMARY(realizing it is not the only action involved) action that shifts weight and begins to move the pelvis forward and slightly open(the beginning of what one might call "rotation" is ABduction of the femur at the rear hip joint—this is the “sideways” Pressing” action I speak of..

The gluteus medius is the major muscle involved in hip joint (femoral) ABduction.
The gluteus medius is a short thick muscle at the sides of the hip.
This is the action that begins the shift in the direction of our target and is also what begins the Forward opening (aka “rotation”) of the pelvis.

I consider that a leg action—we are moving the femur. Some try to muddy the water(core/middle blah blah blah). But as long as you know that the Primary action is the ABduction of the femur by the muscles at the side of the hip, it really doesn’t matter.

It is as if saying the “LEG” pressing sideways is just too simple.

In your video on rotation you say rotation is caused by the legs working against the ground in straight lines. I guess that is where I get confused.

Just so you know, you are quoting a self-admitted novice “just a Dad” those comments and analyses are his not the researcher’s.



side note: The researcher's decision to use toe touch rather than heel plant yielded far different Ground Reaction Force data (timing related to event occurrence) than prior studies.

Yeah I saw that it was a Dad. Would you be able to boil down the difference in the ground reaction force data between that study and the others?

 

[lhowser]

This 13 year old still has some issues with the back arm extending prematurely and flattening the bat too soon, but I was happy with our progress after 3 sessions.

Posting this video is a great contribution to furthering the discussion on this sight. I appreciate it. By analyzing one of your students swings on this forum it gives us a benchmark (whether we agree fully or not) as we consider details of swings of players we coach. Thanks much.

 

[rdbass]

Wellphyt,
I think I've read that you used the Epstein teachings for your DD? I to have been using his cd.I see were you wrote that you taught your DD to 45 her frt foot. I see you said that created a problem on her frt side opening up to soon. If you can or care too can you help me out and maybe point out anything else I should be aware of that the cd teaches that you think may cause possible problems.You can Pm me if you have time..I don't want to bore anyone else.Just want my DD to learn correctly.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt,
I think I've read that you used the Epstein teachings for your DD? I to have been using his cd.I see were you wrote that you taught your DD to 45 her frt foot. I see you said that created a problem on her frt side opening up to soon. If you can or care too can you help me out and maybe point out anything else I should be aware of that the cd teaches that you think may cause possible problems.You can Pm me if you have time..I don't want to bore anyone else.Just want my DD to learn correctly.

I try to stay away from PMs because I believe the open exchange of ideas is beneficial. Plus I have no problem with others challenging my ideas.

I like Epstein a lot. If I were going to send my daughter to a hitting camp, it would be an Epstein camp. With that said, the Epstein "On Target" dvds that I purchased six years ago, and which I relied on to teach my daughter starting at the age of nine, were not comprehensive enough for me to get her swing to the point where I would call it high level. I struggled for years with the weight shift and bat drag.

IMO, the best thing that came out of the "On Target" dvds was a tight hand path and the ability to get on plane of the pitch. My daughter does a really good job of adjusting on-the-fly to the pitch at the knees and the pitch at the letters.

Unfortunately, my "On Target" dvds leave out any mention of the hip cock. In addition, the #1 position in the "Numbers" drill has the student striding to toe touch with the front foot at a 45 degree angle. IMO this action eventually removes any natural hip cock that a student might have. Which is what happened to us.

Knowing that her weight shift wasn't correct, I went out and bought Ted's book as a last resort. I get to page 45 and find out that something called a "hip cock" is the most important move of the hitter. My first thought was "what the heck is a hip cock". Further down the page, Ted points out that the hip cock is basically a natural movement for approximately 75% of us. Which explains why I didn't know what it was. I do it naturally, whether I'm throwing a ball or swinging a bat; so I didn't know I did it. Ted had the awareness to isolate important movements which most of us don't recognize because they are natural movements.

The benefit of the "Numbers Drill" is that it teaches the stretch part of the sequence, where the hands stay back during the stride. However in the process there is a good chance that any natural hip cock will get coached out. I have learned that the front foot will automatically open if the hips are cocked. IMO, rather than teach kids to open up the front foot into toe touch, it's much better to teach the kids to cock the hips/coil, and to keep the front side closed until the body says otherwise. IOW the uncoil and the front foot opening up into toe touch is a natural movement that just happens, provided the player coils.

In one of Epstein' articles, he talks about how he was in Ted's living room trying to figure out what triggers the swing. Ted's in his socks swinging a bat, and at one point Ted says; "Geez Mike, it just happens". I feel there is a big lesson in that statement. Many movements in the swing just happen. I have reevaluated how I teach, and now look for these natural movements that Ted was somehow able to spot. It just kills me to coach good movements out of a kids. I now rely on the sidearm throw model to teach hitting more than any other method.

The other area you will need to figure out when using the "On Target" dvds, is how to wrap the students personal style around what Epstein calls the "technique" part of the swing. Once again, IMO the sidearm throw is a huge help here. I go into depth on this subject with my daughter. I'll have her simulate an incorrect movement in her swing and then have her do the same movement when throwing a ball. It's an easy way for kids to "feel" how various movements can affect the swing.