Dilemma with coach teaching HE (OP update)

[Shiloh]

Thanks for bringing up Carda. She is a great pitcher, but she throws IR, not HE.

The characteristics of IR is the hand pulling the ball around the circle rather. (An HE pitcher pushes the ball around the circle.) At release, the forearm internally rotates to bring the palm square to the plate. The rotation of the forearm carries over into the follow through, causing the hand to flip over.

The most common follow through with an IR pitcher is with the palm down and extended toward the plate (the "sorcerer" follow through). Still other pitchers (like Amanda Scarborough) do a "faky" follow through...after the pitch, the palm is down, but then they pull the arm into the "L" position. Other IR pitchers bring the hand across the body with the palm down.

So, look for (1) is the hand behind the ball at 12 and (2) has the hand flipped over on the follow through. Attached is a picture of Carda at 12. She has her hand is behind the ball. (Technically, it is impossible for her *not* to throw with IR if her hand is behind the ball at 12.)

When Carda throws fastballs, she will sometimes end up palm down. Other times she does an "across the body, palm down" follow through on some pitches. And, sometimes she throws a fastball where the arm ends up in the "L" position, but the palm has rotated toward the catcher.

She throws 2 fastballs, all with the characteristic palm down follow through. She then throws a fastball with an across the body palm down She then throws a couple of riseballs with the L, and then a really sweet "low" rise.

Carda throws a riseball and change with her arm ending in the L position. The "L" position on the rise is a little unusual these days, it was quite common a few years ago.

Go to 1:15 of this video.



In the video, go to 0:39.

Thanks for the analysis. Helpful.

To me she looks like she muscles the ball, which takes incredible arm and leg strength and agility. Doesn't even seem like it should be possible at the level she pitches at.

So yes, her arm around the circle is great, but she also gets very wide open, monkey butts and walks a lot of batters.

Not sure what to call it. HE? IR? HEIR?

Also, if I remember correctly she walked a dozen in a loss to Auburn in the 2015 WCWS (last game of her senior year), including two walks with two outs in extra innings, the latter of which was a walk-off for Auburn. Now, granted, she threw >200 pitches that game and also batted, but if there was ever a situation where a pitcher needed to throw strikes....

 

[Veryzer]

HE isn't a style...it is wrong. No advanced pitcher at any age level throws that way. It is a dead end.

There is no middle ground...there is the right way to pitch and there is the wrong way. IR, FSR, Brush Interference, Leg drive. Do those 4 things, throw 100,000 pitches, and sprinkle in some athletic talent, and your DD will be a star.

The AC doesn't know what he is doing. Dad has to tell the coach not to bother her.

@Veryzer: Tell you what. Show the AC this video of Rachel Garcia and ask him how many times she "answers the phone". I'll give you $20.00 if you video his comments.

Haha, I'm sure that would provide grist for the mill, but might end up being a costly 20 bucks.

 

[Veryzer]

Get his email address and start sending him videos, seeing is believing, there is a lot out there to look at that will educate him.

On second thought send him here!

I've thought about that, but especially being new to the organization, I am reluctant to push it. If it came up in conversation then I'd certainly be willing to offer.

 

[Veryzer]

We went thru a similar thing with hitting on a previous team. We have been lucky with pitching. I had a gentle conversation with the HC off to the side and explained that DD is learning something different and would appreciate it if this was respected and instruction not be given by a specific AC who was advocating for the murder of bugs aka "squish the bug". Went fine for us. Never had a problem again.

My opinion is that you are your DD's advocate. If you don't speak up for her, then she will not progress as fast as possible by receiving one consistent message. The HC should respect your request and let his AC know. If he doesn't, then it is your job to fix the situation however you and your DD feel is best. HC has a whole team to lookout for and you have a DD to protect.

I say all of this after almost 4 years in TB. I get where you are and have been there worried to upset the apple cart. I would go back and do many things different if I could. Don't regret something in a couple years when it comes to your DD and HER journey. Communication is the key. If the HC can't handle that, then I would find another team where the HC doesn't let their ego get in the way of coaching.

Hard to argue with the points you make. Thank you.

 

[quincy]

DD surprised me, she kind of went her own way which cost her innings at 1st. She refused to do some of the drills coaches asked her to do. Ytube can get you.

I was not involved, she stood up for herself. She impressed me., always polite.

 

[Jeffrey]

DD just joined our town's 12u travel "B" team. She decided she wants to give pitching a try, so through this forum I discovered IR, and am thoroughly convinced it is the best approach to release and follow through. I've been working with her on it in our basement and I think we've made some headway. The problem is that the assistant coach (dad of the head coach) is telling her to "answer the phone" which is just a variant of HE. After telling her she was doing it wrong a couple of times today, she meekly told him that it's how her dad told her to do it. He said that's only for curves, and afterwards she started doing it his way. I and my two daughters are new to this organization and fairly new to softball, so I'm not sure how to handle this without sounding like a know-it-all or malcontent. I also don't want to put DD in a situation that's unfair to her. Should she just work on her catching during the pitchers and catchers session and just work on pitching with me?

(I think I've seen a thread discussing this but I couldn't find it in the search.)

Getting back to the dilemma...maybe the coach only sees what he sees in the follow through. If you like the team and want to keep trying, and since the follow through is not really all that important, just tell her to pitch like Jenny Finch. Throw the way she wants and then answer the phone - LOL. It's when they tell her to point the ball at second base at the top of the circle, or come down on top of the ball, or slam the door, that you got problems. Good luck! My girl is a HE convert and still sometimes pulls the elbow up. When she's rolling she finishes across her chest.

 

[cvsoftball]

In the end, the HC makes out the lineup and if your DD can't pitch at a level HC (and parents) expect, she's not going to pitch much, if at all. Let her catch and get in her at bats and team building and enjoy the game as a valuable catcher. Then see where you're at next season. But, again, you need to find a good IR instructor.

 

[Ken B]

Check out her stats from UCLA.
Tons 'o walks.

What to attribute that to?

Lack of brush. Brush really helps with consistency.

 

[Shiloh]

Lack of brush. Brush really helps with consistency.

Yes, totally agree.

So is it still IR if there's no brush?
(not baiting you, genuine question)

 

[Gags]

The catcher in that Garcia video is thinking “what the hell did I get myself into? Please just find the glove and let me get out of here in one piece...”


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