Bat Path

[Buttermaker]

I understand and feel it to be dual lengthening along both AOS (anterior oblique slings) during the stride. Think of a big X across the front of your body. Both lines of the X are lengthening.

Once you release the co tensions your lead side should brake to allow the rear side to rotate around instead of everything just rotating like a cat chasing it's tail.

The trick is to overlap the tension with the release. Hands still going back as the pelvis is opening and then tension is released.

The clip of Bonds on the change up is great example of not releasing the tension.

Fascia has the ability to store mechanical energy from the eccentric contraction or tensioning (lengthening) similar to the way a basketball player has the ability to dunk a ball by taking advantage of the achilles tendon. Tendons as well as fascia can be exercised to increase there extensibility so they can store more energy.

This is why the trunk should rotate around the front hip/leg. If the rear leg is trying to do the driving there is no way to take advantage of this mechanical advantage. It would be all effort. All engine. All push.

TDS has been saying that if you get the up front actions correct then the rest will work out. Getting the fascia primed to store energy is the up front actions IMO. Whatever movements TDS or anyone else like to do get to that stored energy moment is exactly right for them and might not work for someone else. The difference between a non strider and high leg kick hitter. Lots of pre pitch movement like Sheffield or barely none like Molitor.

 

[DRDRODD]

Thanks you guys, but do you see where the confusion comes in? I've got one guy saying "concentric contraction" and "eccentric contraction"...and the other saying both are "eccentric contractions". Somebody there's gonna have to change their opinion, as I can't agree with both of them...right?

Although my biggest question really, is reconciling for myself how "eccentric contraction" comes into play in either of them. Given it's the "lengthening" of a contracting muscle...that's only lengthening because the weight it's trying to contract against is overpowering it if you will (think of a bicep curl that you brought to the top, and when lowering the fatigued muscle is no longer able to hold the weight up, so the muscle is lengthening while still contracting, due to the excessive weight of the barbell or dumb bell...ie. "eccentric contraction"). Here's a reference source you can checkout if anyone's intersted... http://muscle.ucsd.edu/musintro/contractions.shtml

So if you say the front is "concentric contraction" which I agree with, is the rear really in "eccentric contraction", or is the front contraction simply stretching (lengthening) the rear, so the rear can later "concentrically contract" (Stretch Shorten Cycle) to launch the swing?

Said/asked another way...if we believe the rear is eccentrically contracting during the loading process, are we really "stretching" it to it's fullest/greatest capacity with the front's concentric contraction thus decreasing its stretch, and going against the basic SSC preload tenet of "the greater the stretch, the greater the contraction"...thus limiting the strength of the launch that the front and back loading as a whole is supposed to accomplish?

IOWs, if the rear is fighting the "stretch" being applied to it by eccentrically contracting against it...are you truly getting the greatest stretch out of it that its later concentric contraction will have to work with once the determination to suddenly launch is decided, and the rapid reversal of direction is required or called upon?

Hope that's not too many questions, but really, some of them might just be more rhetorical ones to simply show what I'm still pondering and trying to figure out with this new concept of body movements I'm trying to figure out to this point. And that's just the new different contractions being proposed wrt the swing, can't even tell you how the concept of "compressing" muscle has got my head swimming, but that'll be for some other place and time on down the road.

Thanks again, curious to read which direction I should take in this new train of thought. Very interesting really...enjoying the new perspective (Biotensegrity) being put on it all. Cool stuff.

Mud,

I really don't see the confusion. Myself and W=W are saying the same thing.

The comments that you quoted me on is referring to Pre-launch Loading. You may have missed that part.

Anterior Sling Loading
W=W: "There’s eccentric contraction from front leg to back shoulder during stride. "
DRDRODD: " tension to be created across the front of the body from the front hip to the rear shoulder "
I mention the Posterior sling as well but W=W does not.
I think everyone understands that the role of the slings are reversed at launch, no????........... So once again myself & W=W saying same thing.

I knew you were going to have an issue with using the term "Eccentric Contraction" to describe the stretch movement and I can totally understand why. To be honest, that is the reason I typically use the word tension instead of "Eccentric Loading" but I have to throw it in there because that is what it actually is, sorry. Notice that I like to use the word "Loading" instead of "Contraction" to describe this function. I believe the word "loading" just describes it better, which is the stretching (Lengthening) of the rubber-band (The Fascia).

Your big hang up is: "Given it's the "lengthening" of a contracting muscle".

Like I said I get it and is why I like the word Eccentric "Loading" instead.
Another hang up with using the word "eccentric contraction" to describe this movement is MUSCLE........ I do not believe it is the muscle that is stretching....... I believe it is the Fasica that is stretching, so it is being pulled by a force that it can not over come, which by definition is an eccentric contraction.

I hope this clears some things up for you...........

 

[DRDRODD]

I understand and feel it to be dual lengthening along both AOS (anterior oblique slings) during the stride. Think of a big X across the front of your body. Both lines of the X are lengthening.

Once you release the co tensions your lead side should brake to allow the rear side to rotate around instead of everything just rotating like a cat chasing it's tail.

The trick is to overlap the tension with the release. Hands still going back as the pelvis is opening and then tension is released.

The clip of Bonds on the change up is great example of not releasing the tension.

Fascia has the ability to store mechanical energy from the eccentric contraction similar to the way a basketball player has the ability to dunk a ball by taking advantage of the achilles tendon. Tendons as well as fascia can be exercised to increase there extensibility so they can store more energy.

This is why the trunk should rotate around the front hip/leg. If the rear leg is trying to do the driving there is no way to take advantage of this mechanical advantage. It would be all effort. All engine. All push.

TDS has been saying that if you get the up front actions correct then the rest will work out. Getting the fascia primed to store energy is the up front actions IMO. Whatever movements TDS or anyone else like to do get to that stored energy moment is exactly right for them and might not work for someone else. The difference between a non strider and high leg kick hitter. Lots of pre pitch movement like Sheffield or barely none like Molitor.

Great post BM........

Say it a little louder for the guys in the back......

 

[Buttermaker]

Creating fascial tension is the real SnF.

 

[DRDRODD]

1). Use the tension to remove core slack and connect the arms to the pelvis. So the pelvic rotation created by the legs transfers to the arms and bat.
2) the rear leg pushes against the pelvis momentarily to aid in rotation. Then it reaches it's ROM limit and is unweighted
4) good posture- good.
bad posture -bad
Stand up straight. My dd has great posture. She 5'8" and everyone thinks she 6'0".
Actually, standing more erect in the swing (neutral spine) allows your spine to turn more easily.
5) yes, they all contract, at different times when necessary. The core muscles align the spine during the forward rotation.

Thanks Bobby....... after reviewing your answers here I have come to the conclusion that my initial assumption of your theory was 100% correct so no misunderstanding on my part, sorry.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

If "muscles pull, they don't push", how do dual muscles lengthen themselves? What is pulling "both AOS" to dually lengthen them?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Thanks Bobby....... after reviewing your answers here I have come to the conclusion that my initial assumption of your theory was 100% correct so no misunderstanding on my part, sorry.

Good for you.

 

[Buttermaker]

If "muscles pull, they don't push", how do dual muscles lengthen themselves? What is pulling "both AOS" to dually lengthen them?

One AOS is not directly connected to the other. AOS connects to a POS. Each AOS can lengthen at the same time.

 

[DRDRODD]

If "muscles pull, they don't push", how do dual muscles lengthen themselves? What is pulling "both AOS" to dually lengthen them?

Mud, IMO, you need to stop thinking about it as muscles lengthening. There is a HUGE network of elastic material that runs throughout our body and it is called the Myofasical System.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Mud,

I really don't see the confusion. Myself and W=W are saying the same thing.

The comments that you quoted me on is referring to Pre-launch Loading. You may have missed that part.


Anterior Sling Loading
W=W: "There’s eccentric contraction from front leg to back shoulder during stride. "
DRDRODD: " tension to be created across the front of the body from the front hip to the rear shoulder "
I mention the Posterior sling as well but W=W does not.
I think everyone understands that the role of the slings are reversed at launch, no????........... So once again myself & W=W saying same thing.

I knew you were going to have an issue with using the term "Eccentric Contraction" to describe the stretch movement and I can totally understand why. To be honest, that is the reason I typically use the word tension instead of "Eccentric Loading" but I have to throw it in there because that is what it actually is, sorry. Notice that I like to use the word "Loading" instead of "Contraction" to describe this function. I believe the word "loading" just describes it better, which is the stretching (Lengthening) of the rubber-band (The Fascia).

The words "tension" and "eccentric contraction (or loading)" are not simply interchangeable. "Tension" is a force that pulls things apart (concentric contraction), and "eccentric contraction" is the force attempting to prevent something from being pulled apart ("muscles pull, they don't push").

"Loading" is a noun describing the goal you're trying to accomplish...that the verb "stretching" of a muscle in the SSC is being undertaken...which is getting accomplished by the other verb of the "contracting" of a muscle or muscle group . IOWs, "contraction" is the pulling of one muscle in the "loading", "lengthening", "stretching" of another (contracting the bicep...loads, lengthens, stretches the tricep for instance).

Your big hang up is: "Given it's the "lengthening" of a contracting muscle".

Like I said I get it and is why I like the word Eccentric "Loading" instead.
Another hang up with using the word "eccentric contraction" to describe this movement is MUSCLE........ I do not believe it is the muscle that is stretching....... I believe it is the Fasica that is stretching, so it is being pulled by a force that it can not over come, which by definition is an eccentric contraction.

I hope this clears some things up for you...........

Not really, because you're saying that the fascia is creating the force(s) that the muscles are working against or unable to overcome, or that it's the weight or force that they must eccentrically contract against...and that's not what fascia does or is even for....it just holds stuff together if you will.

Crudely stated, but it would be like wrapping a bunch of bungee cords together with a stretchable plastic wrap to hold them all together to form a "muscle". The plastic wrap is not applying or adding any longitudinal forces along with or against the bungee cords, it's just sort of "compressing" then all together to keep that numerous "strands" of bungee cords from just flopping all over the place if not compressed together by the plastic wrap.

How about this, ever wear a compression sleeve? Does that somehow make your muscles stronger? Because that's basically all fascia is, and the "compression" it's putting on the muscles...it's not compressing the muscles themselves like they're some kind of spring building up potential energy or something...that's done by the longitudinal stretching of the muscle(s)...SSC.