I hate side toss, do you?

[Westwind]

Bucket dad not hitting instructor perspective here: I am a TCB user and like them generally. This is a great discussion and I think FFS's perspective should be considered.

I keep coming back to the following as an emerging "truth" for hitting practice and drills, that too much of any one "good thing" can rapidly cause unintended consequences. (Same with dog training btw, and the older I get the more I think training dogs and kids are parallel but that's another story.)

29dad posted:
My observation? Something funny started happening with their swings. Can't quite put my finger on it, other than the swings universally became more "choppy," and several of the girls seemed to just quit after contact with hardly any follow through. That seemed counter intuitive to me. I mean TCBs would help you drive thru the ball even better, or so I would have thought. But that definitely did not match my observations. A lot of us were left wondering - what has happened to these girls' swings? And why were the swings so choppy?

29d, I saw this with my untrained eye when we started using the tcb's several seasons ago. The coach I was assisting wanted to use only the heavy ones by themselves. Bat would stop dead after we used them exclusively for too many weeks in a row. The solution was to mix them with the holey balls. The unintended result of that was the girls focused hard on seeing the ball because they wanted to know what the ball was going to feel like before they hit it and they started following through with swing again. The other benefit was that they had improved timing because the heavy and holey balls fly differently.

Does this mean they adjusted their swings for these balls? Yeah, looking back they probably did. Is that a bad thing? IDK, but I do know we use them in a limited role just like all the other hitting stuff I like to do. Less is more, mix it up, etc. etc.

 

[mann]

I've seen major league batters hitting off a tee, a machine and front toss. Never seen one hitting side toss, or hitting heavy balls.

Not saying that proves those activities are bad, but it's interesting to note.

Amen.
Tell me again what side toss can fix, teach, or repair, better than a tee? or front toss?

I guess I became a foe of front toss, when everyday I saw our high school doing it.
The girls tossing the ball into the stomach of the batter, at the face,,knees horrible.
please do not even defend it, if something else will work.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[rdbass]

:48 sec mark 'The Flail'.

 

[tjintx]

UHOH, an actual reference to the elusive FLAIL. I guess it's not just an URBAN MYTH after all..

 

[mann]

I have trouble, with the word "passive". Does this mean do Nothing, just completely loose hands?

I do golf, and it is a bit different that a baseball swing, especially, in that pre contact zone.

The hands might have a bigger role in the baseball swing, not a clenched full force death pivot or grip, but maybe some small applied pressure , like thrusters on a space shuttle trying to dock.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

UHOH, an actual reference to the elusive FLAIL. I guess it's not just an URBAN MYTH after all..

From my perspective Bluedog has made several good points. For example, his view on eye usage, while in the minority, is spot-on correct. Is he cryptic in his posting? ... yes, but don't take that to insinuate that he doesn't have some good information.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I have trouble, with the word "passive". Does this mean do Nothing, just completely loose hands?

I do golf, and it is a bit different that a baseball swing, especially, in that pre contact zone.

The hands might have a bigger role in the baseball swing, not a clenched full force death pivot or grip, but maybe some small applied pressure , like thrusters on a space shuttle trying to dock.

Mann, the topic has been well covered ... to the point that it has even been documented in a book. If you get a chance, read the book "The Physics of GOLF", Second Edition, Theodore P. Jorgensen. In the book you will find an explanation of how the hands initially supply significant force and then dissipate into what is described above as an unhinging-like process. The hands are used forcefully at swing initiation and become more hinge/release-like through contact … as if the tension level in the wrists is lessening, not increasing. This is where many go wrong when using TCB balls … they swing as to increase tension levels in the wrists at contact, which is backwards from that of a professional-level swing.

 

[straightleg]

I really shouldn't weigh in on the TCB debate. I acknowledge that most of you have forgotten more about the swing than I will ever know. But what the heck, I haven't had anyone get mad at me for a while so I figure I'm overdue.

DD is on a very good team. First year 16U tied for 33rd at ASA/USA in VA after finishing T9 last year as a 14U team at ASA/USA in Normal. So.. not exactly PGF champs but very good. This year they implemented TCBs as part of their hitting routine. They used them extensively. Being conservative, i would estimate that each girl took about 125-150 cuts with TCBs prior to each tournament game. Well, not each game. i mean not if they were playing back to back, but you know what I mean. I believe they also took a TON of cuts with TCBs at practices too.

My observation? Something funny started happening with their swings. Can't quite put my finger on it, other than the swings universally became more "choppy," and several of the girls seemed to just quit after contact with hardly any follow through. That seemed counter intuitive to me. I mean TCBs would help you drive thru the ball even better, or so I would have thought. But that definitely did not match my observations. A lot of us were left wondering - what has happened to these girls' swings? And why were the swings so choppy?

I don't know. My anecdotal "evidence" proves absolutely nothing. Could have been a coincidence. But after reading this thread, which took me by surprise by the way because i thought TCBs were universally loved, I am starting to think that overuse of TCBs negatively impacted DD's team.

I don't see anything wrong with TCB balls but I believe the amount of cuts you should do should not exceed the manufacturer recommendation.
Anyone have that number? I think it is around 7

 

[iMlearning]

I really shouldn't weigh in on the TCB debate. I acknowledge that most of you have forgotten more about the swing than I will ever know. But what the heck, I haven't had anyone get mad at me for a while so I figure I'm overdue.

DD is on a very good team. First year 16U tied for 33rd at ASA/USA in VA after finishing T9 last year as a 14U team at ASA/USA in Normal. So.. not exactly PGF champs but very good. This year they implemented TCBs as part of their hitting routine. They used them extensively. Being conservative, i would estimate that each girl took about 125-150 cuts with TCBs prior to each tournament game. Well, not each game. i mean not if they were playing back to back, but you know what I mean. I believe they also took a TON of cuts with TCBs at practices too.

My observation? Something funny started happening with their swings. Can't quite put my finger on it, other than the swings universally became more "choppy," and several of the girls seemed to just quit after contact with hardly any follow through. That seemed counter intuitive to me. I mean TCBs would help you drive thru the ball even better, or so I would have thought. But that definitely did not match my observations. A lot of us were left wondering - what has happened to these girls' swings? And why were the swings so choppy?

I don't know. My anecdotal "evidence" proves absolutely nothing. Could have been a coincidence. But after reading this thread, which took me by surprise by the way because i thought TCBs were universally loved, I am starting to think that overuse of TCBs negatively impacted DD's team.

I don't see anything wrong with TCB balls but I believe the amount of cuts you should do should not exceed the manufacturer recommendation.
Anyone have that number? I think it is around 7

You can start at about that amount and work up to 18-24 for the baseball size.
DD does about 10-20 most practices mixed in with wiffles and normal balls.