Hand Action at Contact

[FiveFrameSwing]

Long Arms Drill.

A few observations as you watch the video below.

Notice the vertical hinge demonstrated at the 5-sec mark … basically in a position to shake hands with the pitcher at the point of extension. Take note of the comment of “releasing the club”.

Notice the chicken-wing comment about 12-sec into the video.

Notice in the drill that he starts with just the lead arm. Sort of what we’ve been doing here … getting the bottom hand working correctly first. Then the top hand can work unimpeded. Notice the flat lead hand as the lead arm extends and the horizontal hinge action into extension.

 

[FP26]

First and foremost you want to square the ball …… and that isn’t going to happen if your using the bottom hand to drive through contact. As has been suggested since the beginning of the thread … the bottom hand should not be pulling hard through contact, or hammering through contact …. The bottom hand’s action starts earlier than that …. In a sense it is responsible for starting the action of ‘finding the ball' and placing the handle where it needs to be. Those that ‘hammer’ or ‘pull hard’ through contact are more apt to take a “hard left turn” (RH hitter reference) ... to not inhibit the action of the top hand ... and to use their hands unwisely earlier on.

At one point here we spoke of 12/6-ing the ball and releasing to extension. Not a bad idea really. That implies getting the feel correct in the hands at the start of the swing … and not having a misguided goal downstream of hammering through contact with the muscles in the wrists. If you are using the bottom hand unwisely downstream, then you used the bottom-hand unwisely at swing initiation also … and if you are using the bottom hand unwisely, then the chances are good that you are curtailing the job of the top hand as well.

I like where you are going with this. IMO, many hitting instructors/coaches (at least in my area) do not place enough emphasis on the use of the hands. I consider their role to be extremely important in a hitter's success. If you have the time, would you mind critiquing one of the drills I like to use? It is a modified version of a "open top hand" drill.

The hitter sets up as she normally would. She has her normal grip with the bottom hand. The top hand is touching the bat, but she keeps this hand open. As she swings, I ask her to stop at contact, briefly, and then stop at extension. At contact I am looking for the position of her hands (are her hands "above the ball" - distance above the ball depends on height of ball being hit and the necessary tilt to "reach" it). As she progresses towards extension, I am looking for the "shaking hands" philosophy. I prefer to have her reach her hand toward the center fielder because I think extending to the pitcher will have her following through too low. By having her stop at contact and then extend, it helps eliminate the "chicken wing" thing. I will also do this drill with an inside or outside tee location. The hitter then must focus on "shaking hands" with a different fielder; LF or RF.

I look forward to reading your thoughts...

 

[KCPRK]

I should make it clear that I have been preaching the same story for over 10 years *before* the Frazier home run. The Frazier home run was the "icing on the cake", in the sense that it was an event that is a dramatic example of what I had been saying all along. My own work in this started by developing a computational model of the ball-bat collision. From the calculations, it became clear almost immediately that the grip doesn't matter. Perhaps more importantly, the calculations provide for me a very good understanding of *why* the grip doesn't matter. Since my own work, others have done laboratory experiments that provide convincing (at least, to me) evidence for the notion that "the grip doesn't matter." I earlier referred to Dan Russell's web site where he summarizes all of the evidence for this idea. It is certainly not based on the Frazier home run...not even close. It is really a good example of how science works. So, with respect, I disagree with what you have said.

Thank you guys. I read through a lot of the data yesterday but felt it was stand alone studies that when brought together created a coorelation between all the data. After reviewing some of Russells information and having a better understanding of Pobguys information I do not feel that way. This has been very eye opening for me and my obsession with hitting. Thank you guys.

I will continue to follow along and learn.

 

[KCPRK]

I feel that the hands are the root cause to a lot of hitting faults. The comments like your dipping your shoulder etc are the effect with the hands being the cause.

FFS-On you PUPD healthy comment. I am a PU to and thru extension as an absolute. The palm down is not always achievable or beneficial depending on pitch location and style but the PU is part of squaring up for contact equation.

Feedback?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I like where you are going with this. IMO, many hitting instructors/coaches (at least in my area) do not place enough emphasis on the use of the hands. I consider their role to be extremely important in a hitter's success. If you have the time, would you mind critiquing one of the drills I like to use? It is a modified version of a "open top hand" drill.

The hitter sets up as she normally would. She has her normal grip with the bottom hand. The top hand is touching the bat, but she keeps this hand open. As she swings, I ask her to stop at contact, briefly, and then stop at extension. At contact I am looking for the position of her hands (are her hands "above the ball" - distance above the ball depends on height of ball being hit and the necessary tilt to "reach" it). As she progresses towards extension, I am looking for the "shaking hands" philosophy. I prefer to have her reach her hand toward the center fielder because I think extending to the pitcher will have her following through too low. By having her stop at contact and then extend, it helps eliminate the "chicken wing" thing. I will also do this drill with an inside or outside tee location. The hitter then must focus on "shaking hands" with a different fielder; LF or RF.

I look forward to reading your thoughts...

The “open top hand” drill is an old drill that you’ll find described in Charley Lau’s book “Lau’s Laws On Hitting”. Lau believed that the top hand was a swing poison …. And it is when used improperly to pull along the length of the barrel. IMO the correct answer isn't to nix the top hand, but to teach the top hand. My knock on this drill is that it doesn’t teach the role of the top hand at swing initiation. That said, it can teach what you have described … BUT, from my perspective, if you didn’t truly capture transition of the barrel correctly, then the extension you are realizing is in question … as the force to be released was generated in a somewhat different manner. Simply look at the barrel path … and see if it is impacted … as in lacking a healthy reverse-C.

That said … the checkpoints you are describing can be viewed as you described. Add to the “hands above the ball” at contact that the bottom hand wrist is flat and that the top hand wrist is still slightly bent … which tells you that the barrel was being delivered in a manner to closely reach peak velocity at contact.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I feel that the hands are the root cause to a lot of hitting faults. The comments like your dipping your shoulder etc are the effect with the hands being the cause.

FFS-On you PUPD healthy comment. I am a PU to and thru extension as an absolute. The palm down is not always achievable or beneficial depending on pitch location and style but the PU is part of squaring up for contact equation.

Feedback?

If you are turning the barrel to contact then a PU orientation with the top hand will be a 'result' ... but a PD orientation with the bottom hand will often not be a 'result' ... and if you force it, then problems can occur. Don't think PU/PD to extension. Instead of thinking of your hands in a particular orientation, think instead of "flow" and what you are attempting to do to the barrel.

 

[FP26]

The “open top hand” drill is an old drill that you’ll find described in Charley Lau’s book “Lau’s Laws On Hitting”. Lau believed that the top hand was a swing poison …. And it is when used improperly to pull along the length of the barrel. IMO the correct answer isn't to nix the top hand, but to teach the top hand. My knock on this drill is that it doesn’t teach the role of the top hand at swing initiation. That said, it can teach what you have described … BUT, from my perspective, if you didn’t truly capture transition of the barrel correctly, then the extension you are realizing is in question … as the force to be released was generated in a somewhat different manner. Simply look at the barrel path … and if see if it impacted … as in lacking a healthy reverse-C.

That said … the checkpoints you are describing can be viewed as you described. Add to the “hands above the ball” at contact that the bottom hand wrist is flat and that the top hand wrist that is still slightly bent … which tells you that the barrel was being delivered in a manner to closely reach peak velocity at contact.

Thanks FFS. I agree with this. What you are saying in regards to the top hand is the primary reason I rarely use one hand drills. In my experience the bottom hand drill, as an example, often leads to more of a flat swing and does not replicate the reverse-C. By adding the top hand, even in an open fashion, I hope to add the stability necessary to generate the reverse-C. But your point is well taken that I should be confirming the reverse-C when utilizing the drill. I may be too focused on POC and extension, at least with this drill. Also a good point concerning the bent top wrist at POC. Thanks again.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FP26 ... good point about running into potential issues with one-arm only drills. Need to make sure the hitter is extracting the intent ... don't be afraid to ask a hitter performing such drills what they are working on ... try to get them away from swinging mindlessly and not having a sense of purpose.

The reason to teach the bottom hand releasing with direction, is because that's where many go wrong. They have the wrong down stream goal. They need to learn to use the bottom hand earlier ... much earlier ... and to instead learn to release with direction going into contact.

Since we are talking extension, let's keep going.

The notion of hitting “out from” is a solid concept IMO. HI popularized it for many of us here. The concept has long been used in golf as well. Let that action lead you to ‘extension’ (“a long rear arm”) … “get the feeling that the barrel is trying to pull you.”

 

[rdbass]

Let that action lead you to ‘extension’ (“a long rear arm”) … “get the feeling that the barrel is trying to pull you.”

 

[SBFAMILY]

Interesting that the hands and grip can make an impact was not disusssed and there is a lot of style in the MLB high level swing