Throwing

[FiveFrameSwing]

Have you taken the time to verify your interpretation of Hodge's recommendations? If you did, then you'd begin to question the 'L'.

Have you performed under-the-hood testing of the 'L'? If you did, then I think you'd be questioning it even more.

Did you take note of Hodge's full speed throwing demonstration? No you didn't ... because all he performed were slow-motion demonstrations, and if DFP has taught you anything, it is that people can go in the wrong direction with slow-motion demonstrations that aren't supported by full-speed movement of the best performers.

Did you take note of Hodge's thoracic mobility in his slow-motion demonstrations? If you did then you noticed he missed the mark by a wide margin. Not even remotely in the ball park. Neither was there an understanding of the relationship between thoracic extension and the stretch to the lower back ... and if you run under-the-hood experiments, then you'll see why it was easy for him to miss the importance of an angled forearm when thoracic extension is excluded.

I'm not saying that Hodge doesn't have some good information ... I'm simply suggesting that some verification work be performed.

 

[Wellphyt]

Have you taken the time to verify your interpretation of Hodge's recommendations? If you did, then you'd begin to question the 'L'.

Have you performed under-the-hood testing of the 'L'? If you did, then I think you'd be questioning it even more.

Did you take note of Hodge's full speed throwing demonstration? No you didn't ... because all he performed were slow-motion demonstrations, and if DFP has taught you anything, it is that people can go in the wrong direction with slow-motion demonstrations that aren't supported by full-speed movement of the best performers.

Did you take note of Hodge's thoracic mobility in his slow-motion demonstrations? If you did then you noticed he missed the mark by a wide margin. Not even remotely in the ball park. Neither was there an understanding of the relationship between thoracic extension and the stretch to the lower back ... and if you run under-the-hood experiments, then you'll see why it was easy for him to miss the importance of an angled forearm when thoracic extension is excluded.

I'm not saying that Hodge doesn't have some good information ... I'm simply suggesting that some verification work be performed.

There is no interpretation involved on my part with what Hodge recommends, because he is crystal clear on the relationship between the throwing arm and the front thigh. If you want to teach what Tewks teaches, then teach what tewks teaches. I'm going to stick with what Hodge teaches. Not only does Hodge have a medical background, but what he teaches matches how I throw. I played center field through my senior year in HS, and I never took the ball up to the "L" position; or worse; took the ball up behind my head; prior to my front thigh rolling over. I've been coaching for the last 10 years and and I'm always throwing a ball with the girls. I don't throw the way the girl in the video throws.



All of the players in the image above pass through this position:


Neither Hodge nor myself claim otherwise. However Hodge believes that this position should occur after the front thigh rolls over to protect the rotator cuff. Two years ago when I first saw Tommy Hanson pitch for the Braves, I told my DD that he was going to end up with shoulder problems because of his delivery. He basically takes the ball up to the "L" position and even has a slight pause. He prematurely externally rotates his arm.
Tommy Hanson Injury: Braves Starter Has Slight Tear In Rotator Cuff - Baseball Nation

The Braves Minor League physical therapist has convinced Hanson that he needs to adjust his delivery to protect his shoulder from further injury. Their focus is on getting rid of the pause. That in and of itself won't be enough IMO. He needs to stop prematurely externally rotating his arm as described by Hodge. He needs to sync up his front thigh with his throwing arm. The last paragraph of this article mentions how he is trying to sync up his legs with his hands. Hopefully he will figure it out. The fix is very simple. As Hodge mentions in his video; just because a player makes it to the Major Leagues, doesn't mean they throw correctly. There are lots of MLB players whose careers were cut short because of shoulder/elbow injuries caused by poor throwing mechanics.
Braves pitcher Tommy Hanson changes his delivery to avoid further injuries to his right shoulder | MLB.com: News

The Hodge material is the best material I have ever seen on throwing. It is outstanding and matches how I've always thrown a ball.

"Keep your head back and keep your arm back (internally rotated level to the ground) until you feel your thigh roll over, and that's the key to start the external rotation in your arm that will bring your arm up (into the "L")."
--Hodge

"Just keep your arm behind you internally rotated until you feel that thigh leg roll over." -- Hodge

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I guess I’m a little confused … you show photos of throwers without the ‘L’, yet you keep touting an ‘L’ … how does that support your last 10yrs of coaching and using the ‘L’?

I’m teasing of course … my side point is that you keep mentioning that you have 10yrs of coaching, and for some of us that means very little. Heck, I have that beat by a wide margin, and that means little to me also. It doesn’t support, or detract, from your point … it’s just white noise IMO.

Bottom-line … the data shows that a religion based on an ‘L’ is questionable IMO.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wellphyt … do me a favor and try the following.

Go ahead with the throwing sequence as you understand it … get to an internally rotated position and sequence it such that the rear upper arm is continuing to internally rotate while waiting for the lead thigh trigger action. Get to the trigger point … but when you trigger with your lead thigh, instead of simply externally rotating to an ‘L’ position … perform the following … trigger and perform thoracic extension at the same time … and while doing so allow your throwing arm to bend beyond that of an ‘L’ as the upper portion of the throwing arm externally rotates. Place a feel sensor in the lower back … feel the connection from the lower back up to the rear shoulder and throwing arm. That’s throwing!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[Mr T]

I am following this with great interest Well and FFS. Hope it continues.

Well, in your collage of 5 images, it's a bit confusing for me since the Tewks girls is obviously further along in her throwing motion. But I think, or hope, I understand your point: you feel that she isn't moving incorrectly per se, upper and lower body action, you believe her arm is ahead, synch-wise, with the thigh rolling over. Is that a correct statement?

I think Five's post just before the catcher vid, and the Tewks drill slowly sinking in has been eye-opening for me. I think the talk of the getting weight back, as in front to back-back, or as FFS points out the thoracic extension, has finally sunk in and I can see now how incredibly important that is.

Little confused about all the 'L' talk. Everyone is in agreement that at some point the arm has an 'L' orientation, or not?

Also, while the loading or whatever you want to call it of the lower back and lat seems to be a critical truth I always performed but never realized, I am still skeptical of the arm behind the head.

Not that I think the arm behind the head is wrong or right. I just am not convinced it is connected to the critical feeling that Tewks is trying to get players to feel.

Let's also keep in mind that the Tewks vid I posted in a drill, and the girl we are discussing was brought in as a very interesting case to study, a girl who obviously made huge strides, but perhaps isn't considered by Tewks to have perfect form or synchronization.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr-T ... here is an example demonstration of the "L". Note the focus on a 90-degree angle between the throwing forearm and upper arm.

 

[Mr T]

Yes that is absolutely a horrible demo of throwing. However, as Well says, there is a point where a good thrower will pass through, if very briefly, the L position, or something close depending on the situation.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well Mr-T, I do agree that this is a horrible demonstration ..... and it is a demonstration of the "L".

Also ... like many that demonstrate an "L", thoracic extension is absent. Quite unfortunate.

I have to shake my head ... the mother of one of the girls I hit with sent me a txt-msg this evening that her daughter's ASA coach is teaching the "L" you see above ... and is also teaching "ball to the wall". It is taught a lot. You can find these demonstrations throughout Youtube ... even demonstrations like this by notable D1 coaches ... including Candrea ... and while many will demonstrate throwing this way, their actual throw often looks quite different ... yet what I see coaches trying to pass on is not the actions of a real throw, but instead the actions of these poor slow-motion demonstrations. One of the biggest flaws in slow-motion demonstrations is that you can teach almost anything ... right or wrong ... and in this case what you see is wrong.

Regarding Wellphyt's point ... he is mentioning an important difference in the sequence. Tewk's approach is more about 're-direction' ... and that's pretty much what you see the girl in his demonstration doing. The concept of 're-direction' can bypass the holding back of 'internal rotation' of the throwing arm. It's something I'm playing with and haven't passed final judgment on. I do agree with the sequence as Wellphyt states. I'm asking him to include thoracic extension, as I find without it there is more of a spinning type throw ... less of connection from the rear lower back to rear shoulder. I'm also stating that the concept of getting to an "L" is short-circuiting the stretch ... and that if you allow the angle to close off more then you'll enhance the stretch and the resulting whip.

 

[RichK]

If a girl is bringing her back leg through with her throwing arm, almost in unison, what is she doing and what is the cure?

That's the best way I can describe what this girl is doing, it's hard for me to even emulate it myself or know where to start with her (though we may just start from scratch, I'd like to understand better what/why she's doing).

She's kind of like the "before" picture early in this thread on the bottom half, but with a better upper half, ie, she starts ok, takes the ball away ok, but at some point wrong-foots it and gets out of sequence.

TKS