Drop ball and internal rotation

[Hillhouse]

Yes YOU can tell. But you won't be there the next day when they are practicing on their own. And whether you are there or not, what is "enough" drop? I know there are several satisfactory answers to that question starting with "enough to make the hitters miss", but my answer would be, when asked how much drop do I want on my pitcher's drop ball, MORE. And that is what the string is supposed to do. Give a pitcher immediate objective feedback in the form of goals and measurable results. It's not to replace an instructor any more than weights replace a trainer. It's to give her something to track her progress and push her to challenge herself. Because, after all, more break is better.

What is enough drop? Hmmmm. The question would imply that there is a such thing as too much break. For the purposes of getting someone to swing and miss or to simply mis-hit a ball, I'd say there's no such thing as too much (or even too little if they mis-hit the ball into a ground out).

For sure there will be days where the pitcher throws pitches moving so crazy that they cannot control them. Conversely they will have days where everything is flat and won't move at all.

Part of what I do is educate the pitcher and catcher (mostly their parent) so they can recognize the same things I see in terms of movement. If you're catching for someone and cannot see a ball breaking (drop for example) then I'd suggest the pitch isn't actually breaking. It should be pretty obvious. In my lessons, I'm fortunate enough that I can demonstrate it for the pitcher and her catcher. I cannot tell you how many times I've had a dad tell me that "Sally has the best riseball in her league". Only to find out it's spinning sideways and she's tilting her body so far back she could go under a limbo stick in order for it to go upwards. I'm forced to say "Sorry dad, that's not a riseball". Then I show them and the difference is hard to refute. Same for a drop. Often times people think they are throwing a drop by simply keeping the ball low. Not quite. But after demonstrating it, they can see the differences between a low ball and drop ball. Then they know what they are looking for.

I'm not sure if I answered your question or dodged it.

Bill

 

[Mark H]

What is enough drop? Hmmmm. The question would imply that there is a such thing as too much break. For the purposes of getting someone to swing and miss or to simply mis-hit a ball, I'd say there's no such thing as too much (or even too little if they mis-hit the ball into a ground out).

For sure there will be days where the pitcher throws pitches moving so crazy that they cannot control them. Conversely they will have days where everything is flat and won't move at all.

Part of what I do is educate the pitcher and catcher (mostly their parent) so they can recognize the same things I see in terms of movement. If you're catching for someone and cannot see a ball breaking (drop for example) then I'd suggest the pitch isn't actually breaking. It should be pretty obvious. In my lessons, I'm fortunate enough that I can demonstrate it for the pitcher and her catcher. I cannot tell you how many times I've had a dad tell me that "Sally has the best riseball in her league". Only to find out it's spinning sideways and she's tilting her body so far back she could go under a limbo stick in order for it to go upwards. I'm forced to say "Sorry dad, that's not a riseball". Then I show them and the difference is hard to refute. Same for a drop. Often times people think they are throwing a drop by simply keeping the ball low. Not quite. But after demonstrating it, they can see the differences between a low ball and drop ball. Then they know what they are looking for.

I'm not sure if I answered your question or dodged it.

Bill

I think we agree more break is better. I'm just saying an immediate objective measure/feedback is useful to the pitcher in training who already has a reasonable drop and wants to make it better.

 

[lhowser]

Rick Pauly said:

I use the "string" all the time in conjunction with the Rev Fire/Radar gun/ red tape running perpendicular to the four seams on the ball/ and instant feedback video..... all at the same time.
This tells a story that can't be denied. Guessing a spin rate("tight spin") and speeds makes for some really inaccurate board discussions. I measure everything possible to take the subjectivity out of the equation-----

Did you read an RPM difference between a fastball and a drop ball? If so was it significant?

 

[Jojo]

Great discussion about the (peel) drop ball. It seems to me, on purely anecdotal experience that more spin is imparted by staying on the ball slightly longer than the fastball- that is the fingers have a better opportunity to stay on the seams longer (generate more spin) and to actually end up in a finger position higher up on the ball – where it would seem to be easier to spin a ball down. Honestly, the way I taught the peel for many years was to stay on the ball and spin it down. This worked very well, although from a “scientific” standpoint this may have nothing to do with what is actually happening.

After learning more from Bill’s excellent DVD’s, I figured I was wrong on this one and began to instruct students to release the peel drop earlier than the fastball rather than what I had been teaching. Honestly, this has never resulted in success or improved the peel drop in my kids. The instruction to stay on the ball and spin it down has however worked very well. Maybe I am explaining it wrong. It is an area of confusion for me, I admit. Perhaps if I had access to better video I could understand what is really happening in the peel drop release. At any rate I do not pretend to be in Bill’s league and am not presenting an argument here, just my observations and looking to learn.

I just had this same experience last night with one of my students.
She's 11 and we have been working on the drop ball over the summer/fall.
Typically her drop has always been slower than her fastball, too slow, and she was lifting the ball trying to pull the seams up, it would come out looking like a change-up. I kept working with her to release earlier but not much improvement was made, UNTIL I said go ahead and throw some fastballs now---She was throwing it strong with a great break--I made her throw several more and asked her to tell me what she was trying to different on the fastball than she was trying to do on the drop.
She answered that she was trying to release it later.
From my observation she was getting more of a quicker action on her fingers pulling up the seams when she was trying to throw the FB, but releasing earlier on her drop she was trying to use her arm more.

I instructed her to keep throwing the FB the way she was.

 

[Rick Pauly]

I look forward to the expansion. Assuming we have a pitcher whose release point and angle you like, how do you feel about the string as a development tool and my contention that it's always good to develop more break?

Whoops. I see you answered my question while I was typing. Thanks.

I think it is a tie for the best pitching tool I have used between the Rev Fire and the "string".
Try this with the string----it shows why a hitter has such a difficult time with a pitcher who has both a decent riseball and dropball:
Keep moving the string to where the riseball and dropball both tick the top of the string and yet both pitches perform well in the zone (drop at the knee cap and riseball at the bottom of the sternum). Then make your own conclusion----has the hitter had to commit to a direction/location at this intersection point? Interesting how similar the release angles are up to that point----"advantage pitcher."

 

[Rick Pauly]

Rick Pauly said:



Did you read an RPM difference between a fastball and a drop ball? If so was it significant?

I am always amazed at how many pitchers have better or at least equal spin rates on their fastball. I see it all the time. Never more than 1 or 2 RPS difference either way. I don't usually see any big speed differences between fastball and dropball-----unless the pitcher is throwing some "god aweful-body contorting" roll type drop. When I show this RPS similarity to a new student I can sense the disappoint (especially in the Dads)-----all the money Dad has spent on lessons to teach her a dropball.
I think Bill Hillhouse has suggested it before----don't try to over complicate the dropball release action. Whether it is a peel or snapover drop (which I teach a lot) the ball comes off the fingers almost identically to the fastball.

Coincidently, I just went back and read/viewed an old CD that Jimmy Moore (one of the worlds best back in the day) did on pitching---he basically says the fastball and dropball are nearly the same pitch.

Once again, I would suggest that if you throw a good fastball and get the Release Angle and Release Point perfected you will have a great dropball.

 

[Rick Pauly]

I just had this same experience last night with one of my students.
She's 11 and we have been working on the drop ball over the summer/fall.
Typically her drop has always been slower than her fastball, too slow, and she was lifting the ball trying to pull the seams up, it would come out looking like a change-up. I kept working with her to release earlier but not much improvement was made, UNTIL I said go ahead and throw some fastballs now---She was throwing it strong with a great break--I made her throw several more and asked her to tell me what she was trying to different on the fastball than she was trying to do on the drop.
She answered that she was trying to release it later.
From my observation she was getting more of a quicker action on her fingers pulling up the seams when she was trying to throw the FB, but releasing earlier on her drop she was trying to use her arm more.

I instructed her to keep throwing the FB the way she was.

Sometimes "learned motions" such as being taught with peeling or rolling actually slow down the reaction of the fingers and wrist and in turn reduce the spin on the ball. This is the main reason I believe lots of fastballs have higher RPS's than the same kids dropball----it is a natural finger/wrist reaction.

 

[go4fpsb]

Release Angle and Release Point

Test. This is the fourth time I've tried to respond to this thread----reset my password twice. If this doesn't work--I quit.

Forget all the stuff you are discussing until you understand: 1) Release Angle and 2) Release Point. By a wide margin these are the most important criteria for all ball movement---especially the dropball.
I may expand this latter if this message actually sends.

Rick, Glad to see you posting here. Read your postings over at the Fastpitch Analysis forum and always appreciated you sharing your knowledge. At the risk of covering the same ground wondered if you would clarify at least for me the ideal angle and release points for the drop ball as you see them? How are they different as compared to the fastball? Thanks for any input.

 

[lhowser]

Rick Pauly says:

I am always amazed at how many pitchers have better or at least equal spin rates on their fastball. I see it all the time. Never more than 1 or 2 RPS difference either way. I don't usually see any big speed differences between fastball and dropball-----unless the pitcher is throwing some "god aweful-body contorting" roll type drop.

This is extremely helpful to know. So many pitchers and dad's taking the advice of coaches regarding RPM's on the drop being different than the fastball. Since it is primarily an issue of release angle is the successful drop in actuality created because the "roll over" and/or "Peel action" combined with the typical "weight forward" advice simply changes the hip and release point height and angle? Not because of the supposed "extra spin"? This would seem to be the case.

 

[Mark H]

I think it is a tie for the best pitching tool I have used between the Rev Fire and the "string".
Try this with the string----it shows why a hitter has such a difficult time with a pitcher who has both a decent riseball and dropball:
Keep moving the string to where the riseball and dropball both tick the top of the string and yet both pitches perform well in the zone (drop at the knee cap and riseball at the bottom of the sternum). Then make your own conclusion----has the hitter had to commit to a direction/location at this intersection point? Interesting how similar the release angles are up to that point----"advantage pitcher."

Amen brother. Preach it.

The only kids hitting your students are going to be the four frame swings who also anticipate pretty well. I like that. I hate it when bad hitters do well. I love it when good hitters hit good pitching though.