Drop ball and internal rotation

[Ken Krause]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is more than one way to throw either the peel or the rollover drop. Or perhaps more accurately, more than one technique.

For example, I've never liked the pull back/slip a piece of paper out method for the peel. Although I saw it taught in clinics and on video by some pretty accomplished coaches and pitchers, it made no sense to me. Why pull backward when you're trying to throw the ball forward. So I worked out a way to do it where you're pulling the hand over the top of the ball. It provides good, sharp drop (if the release zone is small) without a significant change in pitching mechanics from the fastball (although there are some nuances to it, such as starting the release as you come into your butt and making sure you get up and over the pitch). Not saying that's the "right" way, but it's the way that made sense to me. I teach that to most of my students and they have had great success with it.

I also teach the rollover drop to some because it suits them better. One girl just converted from peel to rollover, in fact. On the other hand, another just converted from rollover to peel because it works better for her.

The point is we all view certain things with these pitches from our own points of view, and/or what has worked for us or our daughters. What works with one way of throwing them may not work with another.

 

[Mark H]

Whatever the mechanic or thought process for your drop, put tape or draw a stripe on the ball so you KNOW how good your spin axis is. Second, work at getting more break with immediate objective feedback. Most commonly set up a string, tape or ribbon about release point high something like fifteen to seventeen or so feet back from the plate. Where you start with the string is not critical. The process of adding difficulty is critical. Pitch your drop over the string and break it down to the knees or lower. When that's easy, move the string a little closer to the plate. That's when you are getting better. Rinse and repeat. The harder you can make it break/the higher you can start the initial trajectory and still make it break down to the knees or lower, the more effective you will be. If the string is such that it may deflect the ball at all, make sure the catcher is wearing full gear or throw to a wall.

Just like you get stronger by lifting a little more weight and then a little more weight as you develop, so too do you develop a better drop by adding to the difficulty factor in practice a little at a time.

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill, I respect you as a pitcher and teacher. You know how to pitch, but apparently, I don't know anything about reading. I was really surprised when you said that you "couldn't disagree with me more" about orientation of the spin axis, RPMs, velocity and release point.

As to spin axis, you agree that it is important.

Yes, of course. The spin is critical. To say the spin being correct and the axis being right would be redundant.

As to RPMs, on your web site (Bill's article on drop balls) , you say that you get more spin from throwing a peel than from throwing a rollover. If RPMs don't matter, than who cares how much spin you get?


I don't recall saying the amount of spin doesn't matter. But your paragraph here is a contradiction. If I said more spin is created by peel drop, then obviously it DOES matter. But I do agree that more spin is created from a peel, when done correctly. It's a much more natural movement. The turn over drop is very unnatural and completely goes against all the principals of trying to throw a ball hard: explosive leg drive, hard elbow snap, natural follow through, etc. Even if you take away the potential injury factor for how many throw the turn over drop, another thing it can do is completely throw a pitcher out of their rhythm. As I say a lot, many people teach mechanics one way for a drop, another way for a rise, another way for their other 20 pitches, and learning how to pitch ONE WAY is hard enough. Learning multiple ways is a nightmare. I believe one thing that makes the best pitchers in the world to be the best is they are consistent in their motions and mechanics. Not changing. Not throwing themselves out of sorts with different movements and not telegraphing pitches to hitters. Part of the problem, I believe, is the the quality of hitting has been soooooooo poor that mediocre pitchers can get away with a lot of shenanigans they couldn't do if facing great hitters. This is why Team USA destroyed most of their competition both on tour and in Olympics. They were good hitters facing mediocre pitchers, despite their "D1" level. The hitting will catch up with the new coaching techniques and more and more fastpitch people teaching the ins and outs of hitting (not just swinging) in fastpitch.

You also say on your website that the velocity of a pitcher throwing a rollover is "much less" than someone throwing a peel. Again, I said my DD threw about 3 to 4 mph less throwing a rollover compared to her fastball.

Then I would argue that your DD had something in her mechanics that was restricting her if she only threw 3-4 mph more on a "fastball". If this is the case, why have a "fastball" then? If she only loses 3-4 mph, why bother throwing a straight pitch? What's the point? 3-4 mph is an acceptable loss for a movement pitch. Make no mistake, I don't understand why ANYONE would want to throw a "fastball" but especially if the difference is only a couple mph.



So, to be honest, I don't even know what you disagree with me about. Release point, maybe?

It was the other points that you mentioned. I know I couldn't throw a drop the way you've described.

Mark... no I never used the string thing that you mentioned. I can tell by catching for a kid if their ball is dropping enough or what. I know Doug Gillis uses something like that for his riseball demo to show the flight of the ball (no, I don't want to debate the pitch!) but I've never done it.

Bill

 

[Mark H]

Mark... no I never used the string thing that you mentioned. I can tell by catching for a kid if their ball is dropping enough or what. I know Doug Gillis uses something like that for his riseball demo to show the flight of the ball (no, I don't want to debate the pitch!) but I've never done it.

Bill

Yes YOU can tell. But you won't be there the next day when they are practicing on their own. And whether you are there or not, what is "enough" drop? I know there are several satisfactory answers to that question starting with "enough to make the hitters miss", but my answer would be, when asked how much drop do I want on my pitcher's drop ball, MORE. And that is what the string is supposed to do. Give a pitcher immediate objective feedback in the form of goals and measurable results. It's not to replace an instructor any more than weights replace a trainer. It's to give her something to track her progress and push her to challenge herself. Because, after all, more break is better.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Test. This is the fourth time I've tried to respond to this thread----reset my password twice. If this doesn't work--I quit.

Forget all the stuff you are discussing until you understand: 1) Release Angle and 2) Release Point. By a wide margin these are the most important criteria for all ball movement---especially the dropball.
I may expand this latter if this message actually sends.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Yes YOU can tell. But you won't be there the next day when they are practicing on their own. And whether you are there or not, what is "enough" drop? I know there are several satisfactory answers to that question starting with "enough to make the hitters miss", but my answer would be, when asked how much drop do I want on my pitcher's drop ball, MORE. And that is what the string is supposed to do. Give a pitcher immediate objective feedback in the form of goals and measurable results. It's not to replace an instructor any more than weights replace a trainer. It's to give her something to track her progress and push her to challenge herself. Because, after all, more break is better.

Mark
I use the "string" all the time in conjunction with the Rev Fire/Radar gun/ red tape running perpendicular to the four seams on the ball/ and instant feedback video..... all at the same time.
This tells a story that can't be denied. Guessing a spin rate("tight spin") and speeds makes for some really inaccurate board discussions. I measure everything possible to take the subjectivity out of the equation-----these tools, especially the Rev Fire have really help formulate my opinions on pitching and ball movement.
It is amazing how motivated a pitcher gets when she knows her spin rate, or speed, or can actually see the orientation of the red tape/or see their spine angle at release. It's self motivation and that's the best kind.

 

[Mark H]

I look forward to the expansion. Assuming we have a pitcher whose release point and angle you like, how do you feel about the string as a development tool and my contention that it's always good to develop more break?

Whoops. I see you answered my question while I was typing. Thanks.

 

[Mark H]

It is amazing how motivated a pitcher gets when she knows her spin rate, or speed, or can actually see the orientation of the red tape/or see their spine angle at release. It's self motivation and that's the best kind.

Yes, it's a learning theory principle. Immediate objective feedback. You have stated better than I what I was trying to get across.

 

[sluggers]

By the time we found a good pitching coach, my DD's motion was really messed up. We worked very hard, but we were never able to get her motion to get it right. Her coach showed her the peel drop and the rollover drop, and she wasn't getting it. One of her coach's pitchers playing for South Florida showed my DD a better way to throw the rollover. She told my DD to think of "screwing the ball into the floor". Immediately after that, my DD started throwing a real nasty drop ball. She was able to get a lot of spin on the ball.

If this is the case, why have a "fastball" then? If she only loses 3-4 mph, why bother throwing a straight pitch?

Right--she didn't throw many fastballs. She would throw drop curves, drop screws, high drops, low drops, and she would change speeds all the time. If she had to have a strike, she would go to a fastball. She had excellent control and could put the ball exactly where she wanted it. She wasn't a super pitcher, but she was good.

Mark, get a large 30 gallon plastic waste can. It should stand about 30 inches tall. Put it between the pitcher and home plate. Take a pickle bucket and lay it on its side at the plate with the open mouth facing the pitcher. Get a 100 balls. Have the pitcher throw the ball over the waste basket and into the bucket. When the pitcher gets it into the bucket, it sounds like shot gun blast. The pitcher will have fun, and she'll work forever just trying to do it.

 

[Mark H]

By the time we found a good pitching coach, my DD's motion was really messed up. We worked very hard, but we were never able to get her motion to get it right. Her coach showed her the peel drop and the rollover drop, and she wasn't getting it. One of her coach's pitchers playing for South Florida showed my DD a better way to throw the rollover. She told my DD to think of "screwing the ball into the floor". Immediately after that, my DD started throwing a real nasty drop ball. She was able to get a lot of spin on the ball..

Assuming of course a healthy motion results I'd say it's just the same in pitching as in hitting-any given cue any given day that helps is golden.

Mark, get a large 30 gallon plastic waste can. It should stand about 30 inches tall. Put it between the pitcher and home plate. Take a pickle bucket and lay it on its side at the plate with the open mouth facing the pitcher. Get a 100 balls. Have the pitcher throw the ball over the waste basket and into the bucket. When the pitcher gets it into the bucket, it sounds like shot gun blast. The pitcher will have fun, and she'll work forever just trying to do it.

Excellent. When it gets easy, move the large 30 gallon plastic waste can a little closer to the plate.