Drop ball and internal rotation

[Mark H]

Rick Pauly says:

This is extremely helpful to know. So many pitchers and dad's taking the advice of coaches regarding RPM's on the drop being different than the fastball. Since it is primarily an issue of release angle is the successful drop in actuality created because the "roll over" and/or "Peel action" combined with the typical "weight forward" advice simply changes the hip and release point height and angle? Not because of the supposed "extra spin"? This would seem to be the case.

Not to answer for Rick but as an aside, when scouting a pitcher, I like to see a kid who stays back on the drop and can start it pretty high in the zone (see the string description above) and still break it hard. Hard and high enough she can get the called strike if there is no swing and yet make the hitter miss on the same pitch if they do swing. I see too many girls who can only make it break if it finishes at the ankles. I view the weight forward thing as part of that problem for geometry/body position reasons too long to go into. I see a kid with a good drop finishing at the ankles I yawn. Not that I don't like a drop in the dirt when it's appropriate. When she also shows me a nasty bite finishing at the knees I go looking for her academic information.

 

[sluggers]

The laws of physics don't stop just because the pitcher decides to throw a drop rather than a rise. In tennis, baseball, golf, and ping pong the amount of top spin you put on a ball directly affects the path of the ball.

Have any of you hit a top spin forehand as opposed to a flat forehand? The difference is significant.

Rev Fire compiled stats from the 2009 NFCA recruiting camp. I've attached the drop ball stats. You can see the original at http://www.revfire.com/files/2009_NFCA_Showcase_RevFire_Spin_Performance.pdf.

The top 20% of the pitchers were putting 20% more spin than the average pitcher. The top 5% of the pitchers were putting 40% more spin on the ball than the average. (And, I'm willing to bet folding money that my DD fell in that top 5%.)

The stats clearly show that some pitchers do in fact put more spin on a drop ball than others. The additional spin results in more downward movement of the ball.

Those pitchers who do put more spin on the ball will get more downward deflection, just like a pitcher putting more spin on a rise will get more upward deflection. It is just the laws of physics.

 

[Mark H]

Those pitchers that do put more spin on the ball will get more downward deflection,...

Yeah, that's what the string is trying to train.

It is just the laws of physics.

I missed it. Who disagrees that more spin causes more break?

 

[lhowser]

Slugger said-

The top 5% of the pitchers were putting 40% more spin on the ball than the average. (And, I'm willing to bet folding money that my DD fell in that top 5%.)

I am quite interested in the RPS's of say a "fastball" compared to a drop ball. Did you perceive your daughter had more RPM's on the drop vs a blast it through the backstop fastball. Wish the Rev stats would have listed a fastball as the "control" or "baseline" (I know...they don't throw fastballs at that level) to see if the 12-6ish RPS spin rate was similar. I'm parking on this because I am curious if I should be focusing on release angle and if peel/turnover/fastball all actually come off the finger tips pretty much the same.

 

[SBFAMILY]

lhowser. At a Divn one pitching camp. They used 20.0 as a cut off. The pitching coach stated, no one throws a true fast ball at this level, unless you want it hit out of the park. So when they measured your fastball, they wanted it to have at least a 20.0 spin. I will stat, I have not seen anyone with more spin that Hillhouse. As hitter posted, his riseball moves more than any pitcher I have seen. It would be interesting to see a RPS on Bill.

 

[sluggers]

At the NFCA recruiting camps, most of the girls who say they are throwing breaking pitches are simply throwing fastballs. Notice also that the average RPS for all breaking pitches are about 18 RPS. Therefore, I would assume that 18 RPS is for a fastball.

As to my DD, I'm sure the RPS on her drop was faster than for her fastball. We had to practice indoors in the winter. When she threw the drop ball short, it took off from the floor like a top spin forehand in tennis.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Rick Pauly says:

This is extremely helpful to know. So many pitchers and dad's taking the advice of coaches regarding RPM's on the drop being different than the fastball. Since it is primarily an issue of release angle is the successful drop in actuality created because the "roll over" and/or "Peel action" combined with the typical "weight forward" advice simply changes the hip and release point height and angle? Not because of the supposed "extra spin"? This would seem to be the case.

I think there is merit in what you have suggested here.

Another point relative to your suggestion; as you have described those "learned" motions it is likely that the pitcher won't have quite as much velocity on the pitch......speed=time=gravitational affect. Less speed=more gravitational pull------probably also equals a more rounded break on the pitch versus a faster pitch which has less movement but the movement is sharper and appears to happen later.

I often come back to why Cat Osterman is so effective with her dropball---she has found the best speed combined with her release angle, release piont, and spin. People often wonder why she is so successful without being a big time "flame thrower". She understands ball movement.

 

[Rick Pauly]

At the NFCA recruiting camps, most of the girls who say they are throwing breaking pitches are simply throwing fastballs. Notice also that the average RPS for all breaking pitches are about 18 RPS. Therefore, I would assume that 18 RPS is for a fastball.

As to my DD, I'm sure the RPS on her drop was faster than for her fastball. We had to practice indoors in the winter. When she threw the drop ball short, it took off from the floor like a top spin forehand in tennis.

All I can say is I've been fooled a million times by my naked eye----the Rev Fire is the "truth meter". Granted, my naked eye is older than most so I don't trust them much anymore.

 

[CoachFP]

I think there is merit in what you have suggested here.

Another point relative to your suggestion; as you have described those "learned" motions it is likely that the pitcher won't have quite as much velocity on the pitch......speed=time=gravitational affect. Less speed=more gravitational pull------probably also equals a more rounded break on the pitch versus a faster pitch which has less movement but the movement is sharper and appears to happen later.

I often come back to why Cat Osterman is so effective with her dropball---she has found the best speed combined with her release angle, release piont, and spin. People often wonder why she is so successful without being a big time "flame thrower". She understands ball movement.

And Rick, you forgot probably the most important aspect about Osterman. Her location is impeccable. Only throwing strikes when needed.

 

[ifubuildit]

I think there is merit in what you have suggested here.

Another point relative to your suggestion; as you have described those "learned" motions it is likely that the pitcher won't have quite as much velocity on the pitch......speed=time=gravitational affect. Less speed=more gravitational pull------probably also equals a more rounded break on the pitch versus a faster pitch which has less movement but the movement is sharper and appears to happen later.

I often come back to why Cat Osterman is so effective with her dropball---she has found the best speed combined with her release angle, release piont, and spin. People often wonder why she is so successful without being a big time "flame thrower". She understands ball movement.

Without a doubt Rick. Good to see you posting again. Reminds me of our old days in the other forum.

Dana.