00 DD one year later....comments welcome

[BoardMember]

Ok, I'm done with you on this subject Steve........First you said INCORRECTLY that Ueno was palm out at 9:00 (your term).........I showed you with slow motion video that you were CLEARLY wrong........So now you side-step the fact that you were CLEARLY wrong as shown on slo-motion video by saying: ya well her pitches don't move much.......And your defense is "And I don't care what the video shows"......

Who can argue with that type of logic?........

In a different thread you said Amanda Scarbourough's roll drop was a model to be emulated. And now here you say spin cannot be enhanced by the palm up position at 9:00. Yet the ENTIRE REASON her roll drop is SO GOOD is because she takes FULL ADVANTAGE of a complete Internal Rotation sequence to enhance her spin........Again CLEARLY shown here in YOUR MODEL PITCHER........

AS Drop.......

Yes I know.......Video doesn't prove anything right?...........

You "say" you teach I/R.......Yet you advocate cutting off 1/2 of the I/R sequence of Humural and Radial/Ulnar internal rotation by preseting a "half closed" hand/ball position at 9:00.........Instead of taking full advantage of the fastest set of moving parts in the ENTIRE HUMAN BODY.........That's right Steve.....Radial/Ulnar rotation is THE FASTEST moving sequence in the human body.........And Internal Rotation is one of the most powerful........The human hand (you know the part that holds the ball) can go from palm back to palm front, or palm up to palm down faster then the human eye can see..........Yet you want to cut that source of power and rotation in 1/2?........For what reason?......

Because that's what someone told you and what you were taught?.......

Who can argue with that type of logic?........

I'm here to tell you that who ever told you that palm out at 9:00 was correct......Was Wrong........

Rise Ball velocity AND spin is enhanced when a FULL I/R Sequence is utilized.........

AS Rise.........

Screw ball is NO different.......Palm up at 9:00 takes full advantage of the fastest moving part in the human body......

AS Screw.......

This is the key to how I/R is utilized to it's fullest advantage: The effectiveness and direction of spin is controled by WHEN/HOW THE BALL IS RELEASED during that FULL I/R SEQUENCE........

Putting the ball/hand into a half I/R sequence position because it's "easier" to time is like taking a 1/2 swing at a pitched ball because it's easier to hit that way.........That isn't how great hitters are created........Think about it.....

The hand SHOULD move from BACK to FRONT ALWAYS.......Even on Rise........Even on Screwgee......Even though we "feel" that we keep the hand "more open" or "more under" on these pitches......We don't......We create spin direction with timing and finger pressures at release.......

And cutting that sequence in 1/2 is ludacris.........Your "Palm out to palm forward" model is cutting the MAIN power/spin mechnism in 1/2, and sacrifices literally 1/2 of the generative power/spin in fastpitch softball...........

The ONLY TIME you want to cut that power sequence is on certain forms of "change up"......And because of exactly what the pitch is called, "change up", is why you'd want to cut the I/R sequence down from full to some to none.......

You can deny slo-motion video until your blue in the face Steve.........Facts are facts.........And they are VERIFYABLE facts through slo-motion video of the BEST IN THE WORLD.......

This is Bill Hillhouse demonstrating his "2 ball" rise drill.........He is palm to the sky down the entire back of the circle until he takes FULL ADVANTAGE of 100% of the I/R sequence (not 50% by being palm out at 9:00), and he uses the FULL I/R sequence to rotate his hand FULLY from back to front........EVEN ON RISE......

He controls spin direction by timing his release half way though the I/R Sequence at the PEAK of it's acceleration from back to front........He is using the FULL I/R sequence to his advantage to create AND enhance the spin.........

And he is using the EXACT SAME MECHANICS as AS in the video above, where she is PALM TO THE SKY at 9:00......And uses the full I/R sequence from back to front, but controls spin direction by properly timing her release and pressures.......

What you don't seem to understand is I'm trying to HELP YOU become a better teacher.........By challanging your beliefs with evidence that IS VERIFYABLE.........And NOT just by what someone told you.......

You've exausted me with your denial of the facts.........So again, I'm done with this for now.........

Peace out buddy.............

 

[Steve Huff]

First you said INCORRECTLY that Ueno was palm out at 9:00 (your term).........I showed you with slow motion video that you were CLEARLY wrong........So now you side-step the fact that you were CLEARLY wrong as shown on slo-motion video by saying: ya well her pitches don't move much.......And your defense is "And I don't care what the video shows"......

Show me this in quotes? If I said it, it would be wrong. I certainly don't believe it. She is palm up at 03:00

In a different thread you said Amanda Scarbourough's roll drop was a model to be emulated. And now here you say spin cannot be enhanced by the palm up position at 9:00. Yet the ENTIRE REASON her roll drop is SO GOOD is because she takes FULL ADVANTAGE of a complete Internal Rotation sequence to enhance her spin........Again CLEARLY shown here in YOUR MODEL PITCHER........

I don't remember saying that, but since you remember what I said you can take us there and pinpoint the post? Secondly, Scarborough isn't throwing a roll-over drop in this video, and nothing similar; unless you call a peel drop similar mechanically which it is not visually similar at all. I an CoachFP are saying BS on this one.

My contention is you just make a lot of stuff up! I went to the Hillhouse video because I didn't believe he threw the double-ball rise-ball motion with a palm up. From the 12:00 position through the 09:00 position, all the way through release his palm faced the audience. 2:15-2:17. In fact the most informative part is 04:52-05:30 where everything he deomonstrates is exactly what I have been saying. Palm out at 12:00 and 09:00 (your 03:00), and then the appropriate wrist spin release.

Please note that the audio is missing in much of this video, but you can understand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktdY-SoRflY


As I said before, the only pitch it facilitates is the curv-ball, but the elbow movement toward the backside, not hip, reduces elbow tensions. Secondly, I don't deny the videos, or most of them show palm up. I am not a denier of that fact. I am a denier of it's usefulness. First, that 90 degree rotation speeds up the ball how. The hand position is at 09:00 on both, so how does your 180 degree IR get the arm there faster? I am just not buying your arguments for why it works better, or why it is healthier, or why it throws faster. And in fact, I think it gives less control and or control of spins when rotated late in the process. Ueno is a great pitcher, but she throw a lot of corkscrewing pitches.

So there is no use arguing. It will take more than you to change my opinion about this.

 

[rbescoe]

BoardMember,
In all fairness, we only receive your best, when you’ve been challenged to rectify miss-information.
Many of us who follow this forum, know your wisdom and certainly, appreciate your pitching/softball/knowledge…..however, I believe most would also agree that we only receive your best knowledge when you are forced to rectify & address absurd or inaccurate information.
Our hats are off to (author unknown) for being able to inspire boardmember to create yet another series of brilliant posts.

 

[tojo]

I have to disagree with your assumption that BM was at his best when he resorted to name calling(God complex) in an earlier post. BM accuses others of being absolute in their views but he has shown no inclination to bend on his views. I do agree that BM is very knowledgeable of the mechanics of windmill pitching but he also acknowleged in his post that he is still learning. The original subject of this thread has be hijacked by egos. As has been stated time after time, no one style suits all pitchers.

 

[Steve Huff]

BoardMember,
In all fairness, we only receive your best, when you’ve been challenged to rectify miss-information.
Many of us who follow this forum, know your wisdom and certainly, appreciate your pitching/softball/knowledge…..however, I believe most would also agree that we only receive your best knowledge when you are forced to rectify & address absurd or inaccurate information.
Our hats are off to (author unknown) for being able to inspire boardmember to create yet another series of brilliant posts.

Interesting "new" member! Well what I would say is that BoardMember has a viable opinion. I have a different opinion. We have both been around a long time. I could spend all day finding videos of pitchers who don't have their hand palm up at 09:00. It proved nothing. I oppose this hand position, he supports it. I give reasons why, and now I guess you can show me why I should in his posts? Are 10 videos why? I don't buy it.

The big problem I have is that I don't agree with fabrication. The first claim that I said Ueno's palm is facing out instead of up doesn't exist (my post is #29 on this thread). The Scarborough comment about her roll-over probably doesn't exist, but I will accept it might, though I don't recall in any video EVER seeing her do a roll-over drop. Lets see my post! The video posted above of Scarborough throwing a "roll-over drop" is ludicrus. It might be a peel, but there is nothing to do with a roll-over; there isn't any "roll-over"! The claim that Hillhouse demonstrates it with his "double-ball" rise ball demon is offered here in video. His palm never adopts such a position in demoing the proper release repeatedly.

You can't break an opinion. He can't break mine, and I can't break his. But it is odd to me that you seem to dimiss my paragraph above. He who shouts loudest is right? Well I don't say he is wrong for his opinion. But if your stance is strong, you don't have to make things up! And you don't have to sink to insult.

Egos were mentioned. You can see the egos by who is "thanked", and who gives "thanks". There are a few people here who value their own opinion and see others as a threat to their egos. Do I have to tell you who they are?

 

[BoardMember]

First of all......I have to correct an inacuracy. It was not AS that was Steve's model for Roll Drop mechanics.......It was this young lady.....Whom I've already posted in this disagreement.......Showing that she is palm to the sky as soon as her hand enters the frame, and continues down/through the 9:00 position PALM UP........And throws a ROLL DROP..........

Recaping........I've now posted verifyable palm to the sky clips of Ueno, Seldon, Knottleman, the Parker student, Osterman, Hollowell, Pauly, Scarbourough, Smith, Hillhouse, and we know we can add Finch to that list as well.......

These are clips of high level pitchers throwing Rise, Roll, Peel, Change, Screw, FB......Basically running the gammit of pitches............All Palm to the sky at 9:00........All utilizing a full I/R sequence vs. 1/2 sequence.......

I'm not about to explain the physics/bio-mechanics of I/R ALL OVER AGAIN to someone who refuses to understand it.......And especially to someone who "can't understand" how 180 degrees of POWERED bicep/forearm rotation can produce more velocity and more spin then 90 degree of the same rotation........

One only has to do his own simple experiment with the physics/bio-mechanics of I/R...........Go out to a field.........Or get a radar gun for that matter............Start sideways and hold the ball at 9:00 PALM OUT........From that position move down through release and throw the ball AS FAR AS YOU CAN...........Then hold the ball PALM UP at 9:00 and throw the ball AS FAR AS YOU CAN.........The difference will be measurable........

The premise that the arm's connection to the shoulder socket coupled with the wrist hinge/finger articulation is the only thing used for the fastpitch delivery was blown out of the water here on this forum.......And it's why my I/R thread opened so many eyes here..........

The physics of kinematic energy that is exerted on the ball start and end with centerpedal forces that CREATE centrifugal forces on the whipping action.........The more rotation that occurs, the more centerpedal force it takes to keep the ball from flying out of the whip prematurely.........And the more centerpedal force exerted, the more centrifugal force is generated.......And the tighter that rotational axis is.........The faster it move............

Adding full I/R rotation of the bicep/forearm/wrist to the arm circle is a kin to adding a faster spinning tornado with a tighter axis inside an already turning tornado.........And the effects of the combination of these forces is exponential.......Similar to a gear effect.........

Bottom line here is that these pitchers are PALM TO THE SKY for a reason..........Whether they know it or not........And I'd venture to say that 90% of them do NOT know they are palm to the sky........This has been demonstrated here on this forum OVER AND OVER again, with clips and video's of teachers who SAY one thing......But DO something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT..............

Heck......This is exactly why I exposed the hello elbow/push it down/bowl it up fallacy of the fastpitch delivery. To show people here that even the most well intentioned and well respected teaches/coaches/pitchers will tell you one thing, and then do something completely different in their live demonstrations in REAL TIME...........

The exact same thing could be said about Hillhouse above..........Where in his 2 ball "talk" he shows his hand facing forward but in his REAL THROW THAT I POSTED he is PALM TO THE SKY........

So if you want to base your teaching premise on what someone "says" to do vs. what they ACTUALLY DO, by all means stay the path..........But your learning curve will be limited to learning more words about what people say vs. learning TRUE actions that make them "high level"..........

Education and learning can be as "deep" or as "shallow" as you wish to make it.........This is why I say "I'm still learning"......I will test EVERYTHING ANYONE SAYS against video of what they ACTUALLY DO.......And video of what the best actually do......

Around the internet forum community this is know as "The Hanson Principle"...........A fellow contributor who years ago changed the way we "educate" ourselves and others. He coined the phrase "AWAYS COMPARE ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS WITH VIDEO OF THE BEST IN THE WORLD"...........

I live by that principle.........And I'd recomend anyone who is truely interested in continuing/furthing his/her education process at a higher level adopt it as well.........

Ok NOW I'm done with the reason I don't like "Wipe the Wall"...........Which is what started this in the first place......

 

[Steve Huff]

I will watch your Hillhouse video post, but I can't yesterday or today. I don't necessarily accept that the Parker student is palm up. I would have to have 200fps video to know. this video is too grainy. I can't watch videos now because my PCS card stopped working. I can watch youtube, but not quicktime, or flash videos. They don't even show on my page. Tomorrow. But Hillhouses clinic video is correct in his premise about hand orientation and releases. I wish I had seen this before. We just disagree! But, Hillhouse and I don't disagree with IR.

 

[BoardMember]

Ya Ya Ya............Gotta have 200fps to prove anything......Whatever.......

If it looks like a duck........Walks like a duck.........And quacks like a duck..........It's a duck.........Even if someone claims it's a "swan".......Palm up at 9:00......

Hanson Principle...........

 

[Steve Huff]

Ya Ya Ya............Gotta have 200fps to prove anything......Whatever.......
If it looks like a duck........Walks like a duck.........And quacks like a duck..........It's a duck.........Even if someone claims it's a "swan".......Palm up at 9:00......
Hanson Principle...........

Well, this is a waste of time. I can see the videos now. I just got back from Verison and have a new PCS card. I don't see palm up in the Scarborough or Hillhouse video. I think there may be some tilt. BUT, in the Hillhouse video if his palm was up, the yellow ball would disappear, blocked by the grey ball. I don't see it. But I think it may be tilted.

Videos prove nothing to me. I can find 10 videos that are not palm up. What does it prove if I do? Nothing as far as I am concerned. I was a science major in college. I don't learn that way. I don't learn by ridicule, and I don't learn by misrepresentation. The irony is that in almost of your videos, I agree with what you see. Not these two, and not sure about Parker's student. But "hello elbow" doesn't make it right. Slamming the door videos don't make it right. Or should I say advisable since I am not the end all be all. So I agree they are doing it. Even Ueno who you also misrepresented my words. It was a fabrication on your part. A near blind man could see her palm is up. So why do you keep making a video argument. It won't change anything. It isn't evidence of viability. As Hillhouse explains in the Fastpitch TV video #2 (I haven't seen #3 yet), how you enter release with hand position is important. If he is doing it wrong, perhaps he needs to work on it. You should just accept that we disagree.

 

[Screwball]

FYI on the screwball: My hand is at almost flip change position on the backswing, ie, turned around. Not all pitchers do it that way, but this gives you more spin.

And on the AS peel drop, she cocks her hand back on the bottom of backswing to make it spin, as I do.