00 DD one year later....comments welcome

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Mr. Huff...........This is your video of proof that Hillhouse's palm is facing 3rd at the top AND facing 3rd at 9:00? And you've spent the last 3 pages tell me that my video isn't "clear enough"??? This was a joke right?

Why don't we just use these.........

And that video of Hal you used as one of your example is a "submarine pitch".........NOT a Windmill Pitch.........He pushes his arm UP THE BACK OF THE CIRCLE to reach the position.......And you can't even see the ball at 9:00.........I made that clip........And that clip CANNOT BE COMPARED to a windmill pitch........

Sarah Pauly is palm up at 9:00 even in the clip you referenced. I've already posted an X-Mo clip of her in this thread anyway as verifyable proof..........

Regardless........"Wiping the wall" with the ball from 12:00 to 9:00 is NOT how the best pitchers in the world throw the ball...........

You made the statement that I just grabbed 10 video's of the palm up position, and that doesn't prove anything.......

What you failed to say was that I grabbed 10 videos of both current and past pitchers who are argueably THE BEST PITCHES IN THE WORLD to show these postions........

And you fail to see the signifance of THAT premise............Which is what the "Hanson Principle" is fundamentally based upon.......And why the "Hanson Principle" has caused melt-downs like this ALL OVER THE INTERNET.......

The Hanson Principle INSISTS that threories and concepts are TESTED against THE BEST IN THE WORLD.......

I teach what do the MAJORITY of the BEST in the world do......And I have for 30 years.......And though research I can say without a doubt that THE MAJORITY of the best pitchers in the world are palm up at 9:00.......And the MAJORITY of the best pitchers in the world do not wipe the wall.........

Oh they may "think" they do........But they do not........

In conclusion.........I'll go with what the Majority of the best pitchers in the world do........Vs. what they say/think they do.......

Maybe Rich will let you borrow his knee pads when we're done..........

Best Regards.......

If you believe, as I do, in the premise of "Internal Rotation" than the "palm to the sky" and thumb on top of the ball at 9:00 generates the maximum amount of arm whip as the arm continues down the circle to and through release and at 9:00 is the ideal position as demonstrated by the best pitchers in the world.

I used to have this argument with BM that the elite pitchers do not have palm to the sky (I erroneously thought towards 3rd base) at 9:00, but I was wrong. BM keep up the good fight...some of us are listening and learning...

 

[Steve Huff]

SoCalSoftballDad, if this last photo is thumb on top, and palm up, (I agree it is thumb on top in many of the foggy videos), then why isn't the wrist shown in those videos, flat? Why is it oriented to show a thick wrist structure. If the palm is up in the Hillhouse video, the wrist would be flat. And remember he uses a 2 finger grip.

But again, this is just photo/video debate. It doesn't matter to me as a convincing method. I presented two arguments and have not heard one word of debate.

 

[Hillhouse]

Regardless........"Wiping the wall" with the ball from 12:00 to 9:00 is NOT how the best pitchers in the world throw the ball...........

Best in the world? Me? You guys don't get out much!!!!

 

[coachdan]

Now I want to ask you coach Dan, what did this prove? Posting videos proves nothing. I could spend the rest of my life posting something to support my argument. This debate started about the hand facing 3B at 12:00, at the top, and 09:00 by my natural clock when looking at the pitcher from the side, or 03:00 by Boardmember's clock, directly behind, in executing the "Wall Drill".



I have no idea what this last statement means, but it is probably similar to my convoluted Ueno comment early in this thread; perhaps just misspoken.

Now if the palm forward argument is used, then why do so few videos demonstrate such an orientation. And since, most of the pitchers in the videos show a palm out orientation at 12:00, what is wrong with the wall drill? Lastly, even if you taught palm up at 09:00/03:00 by Boardmembers clock, the hand isn't in contact with the wall at "03:00" and has already slid off. The hand could already be turned, cupped up like Ueno.

My contention is that this orientation used by Ueno and others, like hello elbow is not the best advice. I have reasons, and the proof I am wrong is videos posted over and over again. That ain't science! And my videos prove nothing. Videos have nothing to do with my contentions. It does however prove that Boardmember has better computer software than I do.

My contention is that the palm up puts more stress on the elbow. You can orient the elbow in the same position, pulling to the hip, without the 180 degree maximum supination of the elbow. In other words turning the elbow 90 degrees out of the neutral elbow position, hand facing out, can achieve the same ends. The humorous bone in the upper arm can only help achieve this 180 degree position by moving in the rotator cuff. This adds additional stress on the rotator cuff, which is probably the most vulnerable joint in motion mechanics. The natural or neutral position would be the hand facing out at 12:00 and and at 09:00. The 90 degree angle, palm out doesn't put a lot of stress on the elbow. If you grip a ball, and assume both positions, this will be obvious to you. The only pitch the palm up position benefits is a curve-ball when thrown as most do, from a "cupped" hand position. However, the elbow leaves the homogenous circle and goes behind the back, relaxing the elbow from the vertical (circular) position that the palm up position demands. Further, the palm up position naturally progresses into a pronated position after release. When you are standing, hands at side, patting your thigh, the two forearm bones are twisted over, or around the other, radius over ulna. This is the end result of Ueno's release. So the bones have rotated 270 degrees from a non-neutral to the opposite non-neutral position.

The second issue. I have posted in other threads about Ueno's palm up position. So the one stupid gramatical post is out of context to my body of posts. I blew it in achieving my message. However in #29 I wrote about it more extensively, as I had in other threads. I don't like her achieving the neutral hand position during release so late. Timing becomes an issue, and that may not be as critical for her as it would be younger pitchers. At what point do you get the hand turned back facing the catcher on a peel drop, fastball, changes of some types, etc? From the 90 degree elbow position, it requires half of the correction, enhancing timing problems for various releases. The 90 degree position is also exactly what is required for a rise-ball, as Bill Hillhouse demonstrates in his Fastpitch TV video #2.

These are not video challenges. And they do not require fabrications or just shouting louder. If you are going to challenge a theory, you have to work within that theory, and offer an alternative. It is like saying, "Those Democrats haven't offered a budget!" And the Democrats say, "Well where is yours!" I am a Conservative by the way and hate them all! Don't argue my theory with videos. If that is valid, I can impose a plethora of videos supporting "hello elbow". Debate within the premise. Attack the theory. Offer an alternative and show why.

Lastly, I do not believe that the enhanced or at the limitation of IR, 180 degree position, palm up at 09:00, somehow enhances speed more than the 90 degree, palm out, facing the wall position. That is the theory Boardmember made. I have no evidence to the contrary. But it isn't my theory.

I don't think, and there is concrete evidence to that fact, that I give a lot of credit to other posters. But this argument and my two premises have not been broken by videos. Remember "hello elbow".

Mr. Huff.....Out of all the videos you posted the only one I can verify ball on wall is Finch...all others NOT.

You say that video's don't prove anything, that puzzles me coming from a pitching coach. Do you record your students and use the video when breaking down there mechanics? Most good coaches do. You don't have to agree but don't say "VIDEO PROVES NOTHING" thats just not true.

Now for you "hello elbow" argument. Post your videos and I bet you will see that the hello elbow is performed after IR occurs and is forced after the fact. Don't think you can post video of elite pitcher pushing the ball down the back of circle and then snapping up into the hello elbow.

I'm not here to take sides...I'm here to learn and be a better coach.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Best in the world? Me? You guys don't get out much!!!!

Really I agree, especially to any real clinics....But I'd still have to take you over Ueno-who? <!-- Begin Official PayPal Seal --><a href="https://www.paypal.com/us/verified/pal=lewis%40wicklines%2ecom" target="_blank"><img src="https://www.paypal.com/en_US/i/icon/verification_seal.gif" border="0" alt="Official PayPal Seal"></A><!-- End Official PayPal Seal -->

 

[BoardMember]

This is one of the videos you posted earlier of Michele Smith as one of those little micro videos, gifs I guess.

Ha Ha........I though you were done with videos buddy?..........Looks like I've got you thinkin a little bit.........

And No......That is NOT the clip I posted at all...........The clip you've got here is a REAL SMITH CHANGE.........The one I posted is her drop..........But YOU wrongly claimed it was her change in another thread.......You said you "new her and that was NOT her change".........Nice job...........

It is reversed, and you said she was palm up.

She IS palm up in my clip........Because she isn't throwing a change up..........Remember earlier in this thread when I told you that certain forms of change up will NOT be palm up, and infact would be palm down....??? Smith rotates her hand over the top to palm down on purpose to cut the I/R sequence all together...........Remember when I said that about change?.........

Mine is on the left........And yours is on the right.........Mine is palm up.........The change up is palm down.......

I would suggest freezing the video at 00:08.5 through 00:09 and look at her hand. Here is a thumb showing in the freeze-frame is at 00:09.2. Her fingers are on top of the ball, palm down. I thought that this was a changeup. That shows how useful some of these videos were.

Well you got your wish...........Now what?...........

That includes the mysterious Amanda Scarborough "roll-over" drop ball. And I think if anyone watches the Pauly and Hillhouse videos objectively, they will come to the same conclusions.

No they won't..........And if you can't see her hand rotate from palm out to at the top to palm up at 9:00 here........There is no hope for you.........

And if you really don't think the yellow ball is resting comfortably on the OTHER SIDE of the gray ball here.........I don't know what to say..........

But, I am not interested in video wars. I am interested about my pitching mechanics points that I made.

Sure, that's why you went and found a change up video after YOU SAID NO MORE VIDEOS.........And you should be interested in the points you made.......Because they need to be adjusted to fit reality............

 

[BoardMember]

This is Jenny throwing in a game........I'm not sure what her objective was in the demo you put up......But this is NOT a curveball.......Can you really NOT see her thumb rotate from palm out to palm up??? Can you really not see how her thumb is no longer visable at 9:00 because she moves to palm up? Can you really not see how she stays palm up down/through 9:00?......

Ya Ya I know.......No more videos right?......They don't prove anything........

You put this video of Pauly up right? Claiming that anyone objective will agree that she is palm out at 9:00..........You seriously claim you cannot see Pauly rotate the ball from palm out to palm up at 9:00??? And even keep it there through 9:00??..........

Just in case you really don't know the difference........Just for you to see it, I've frozen the clip AGAIN at the bottom when the ball returns to palm out.........

Oh ya crap, sorry I forgot......NO MORE VIDEOS!

 

[Steve Huff]

Best in the world? Me? You guys don't get out much!!!!

I think there are many great pitchers. I remember Mike Piechnik pretty well. But you are one of the best and one of the best teachers. And what you say makes sense. You make me question myself. Most of these guys here can't do it!

 

[Steve Huff]

No, and you don't show the finishes, because if they are throwing curve-ball, as I have repeated myself again and again, it is necessary, and that elbow fade behind the back reduces the stress. The first Pauly video above appears to be a curve-ball. Finch video appears to be a curve-ball. Now if you can clip those videos, you can also show the finish. And if that Pauly video and Finch video aren't curve-balls, I would be surprised.

NO! You don't debate, you just post contrived videos; some legit, but too many contrived like the Michele Smith video and the Amanda Scarborough roll-over drop, etc. Debate my points if you are so smart and stop posting videos.

I was a science major. When Michael Mann, Maurice Strong, and Dr. Jeffrey Allen presented the "Hockey Stick Paper" on global warming, I read it. I asked, where is the element of hydrology in this science. In other words, precipitation. So I was to believe that tree ring size was controlled more by .007 degree temperature increase per year than drought or deluge! It was settled science! I was an idiot! And I never heard anyone in the media ask about this issue. Now I do believe in global warming and that is not the issue whether politically expedient or man-made. My point is show me something intellectual, not more videos. Break my two points!

About the Michele Smith video. What pitch is on the left? They are both changeups. However, they are not thrown the same. I have to grant you that fact. Why, I don't know. I can see the catcher's glove position and they are different. But you can post the whole video. Evidently Michele is trying to work out a consistent changeup.

 

[CoachFP]

I think there are many great pitchers. I remember Mike Piechnik pretty well. But you are one of the best and one of the best teachers. And what you say makes sense. You make me question myself. Most of these guys here can't do it!

Steve, I am amazed at the number of folks on here that can describe every aspect of the pitching motion but not know when someone is doing something right or wrong or even recognize the pitch thrown when they watch a video. Sometimes I think they can get too technical and miss the forest for the trees.