00 DD one year later....comments welcome

[BoardMember]

I'm not a fan of the wall ball drill........It doesn't mimic the actual direction that the palm should be facing both at the top and at 3:00..........

 

[Steve Huff]

I'm not a fan of the wall ball drill........It doesn't mimic the actual direction that the palm should be facing both at the top and at 3:00..........

And what direction would that be? And where in the drill is the hand touching the wall at 03:00 or are you looking in reverse to me? The hand faces the wall at the top, the hand leaves the wall before 09:00 or perhaps 03:00 on your clock. I have used this drill for probably 20 years. It hasn't failed yet. And I am not the only one according to what I have read. Enlighten us.

 

[JAD]

Biggest thing I see in the first video is the way she brings her trailing leg (right leg) behind her like a bowler. I would go ahead and teach her now to drag her trailing toe. As she starts to use her legs more for power, she may be called for 'leaping' if both feet are off the ground at the same time. Most pitchers avoid this by dragging their trailing toe. It should make a Nike 'swish' symbol in the dirt.

 

[BoardMember]

And what direction would that be? And where in the drill is the hand touching the wall at 03:00 or are you looking in reverse to me?

If I am the pitcher facing a clock......The back of the circle is 3:00.......Symantics.....

The hand faces the wall at the top

Exactly why I don't like the drill........

the hand leaves the wall before 09:00 or perhaps 03:00 on your clock. I have used this drill for probably 20 years. It hasn't failed yet.

And I've NOT used it for almost 30 years and it hasn't failed me yet.......

And I am not the only one according to what I have read.

I'm sure you're not......A lot of coaches like the "hello elbow" push as well but that doesn't make it right...........

Enlighten us.

I don't like the "external twisting action" that is required to accomplish that "ball to the wall" position at the top.......See what happens to this young lady when she "twists the ball" into your "wall drill postion" at the top?........Perfect example of why I don't like the wall drill.........

Does that enlighten you as to why I don't like the drill?..........

I like palm down or in on the way up.....Palm forward at the top......Palm to the sky at 3:00 (or 9:00 if that's your preference).......

It's not an absolute.........It's just what I believe is the best way to teach the arm circle and internal rotation.......And it minimizes the twisting action in the arm circle.........

 

[Jillsdad]

BM if I am understanding your picture of proper hand position through the circle, you would do the above drill (if you were to do it that is) by touching the wall with the pinky finger....and keeping the contact with pinky and wall the entire circle until just a few inches prior to release. Do you see what I am saying and do you agree?

 

[BoardMember]

BM if I am understanding your picture of proper hand position through the circle, you would do the above drill (if you were to do it that is) by touching the wall with the pinky finger....and keeping the contact with pinky and wall the entire circle until just a few inches prior to release. Do you see what I am saying and do you agree?

Conceptually correct. Although a "few inches" is a little exagerated......Once the hand is palm up at 3:00 I/R begins to manifest itself in the release phase from 3:00 to release........

 

[Steve Huff]

If I am the pitcher facing a clock......The back of the circle is 3:00.......Symantics.....

Exactly why I don't like the drill........
And I've NOT used it for almost 30 years and it hasn't failed me yet.......
I'm sure you're not......A lot of coaches like the "hello elbow" push as well but that doesn't make it right...........
I don't like the "external twisting action" that is required to accomplish that "ball to the wall" position at the top.......See what happens to this young lady when she "twists the ball" into your "wall drill postion" at the top?........Perfect example of why I don't like the wall drill.........
Does that enlighten you as to why I don't like the drill?..........
I like palm down or in on the way up.....Palm forward at the top......Palm to the sky at 3:00 (or 9:00 if that's your preference).......
It's not an absolute.........It's just what I believe is the best way to teach the arm circle and internal rotation.......And it minimizes the twisting action in the arm circle.........

Ok, so the back of your circle is 03:00 and for arguments sake that is what I will infer.

Palm to the sky at 3:00

Fist off, Jill's hand faces in, then out, in a very short period of time. You can see it in your video. That is a lot of arm twisting. But the palm up position puts stress on the inner elbow as it comes down to the 03:00 position. The palm out position, as demonstrated in the Ueno video is a more relaxed joint position. So NO, absolutely not, I don't agree with your premise. From a joint health position, the palm out toward the wall is more relaxed, and I hope Jillsdad will test it. And the reason I teach it that way isn't because I am so profound, it is because that is what I was told and taught.

As the hand is raised, the arm turns naturally into the position. You don't have to torque and twist it. But, if you have palm inward, then try to transition, it isn't easy on the motion.

And to be honest, your hello elbow is not an intellectual argument. It is an illogical fallacy. It implies my credibility is somehow attached to those they approve of hello-elbow, which I have never liked and find it to be very unnatural. I also never liked slamming the door or closing on pitches as part of the motion before the release. And not once in my life have I ever taught that. I just want us to be straight so you either have ammunition or get it right.

The palm out position, as demonstrated in the Ueno video is a more relaxed joint position.

This sentence should read something like, "The palm out position would be preferable to the Ueno video as it a more relaxed elbow position. Ueno is absolutely palm up as well can see.

 

[BoardMember]

Your a funny guy Steve.......I said I don't like the "wipe the wall drill" and it obviously irritated you........You made some snide comment to me about "enlighten us"............As if the "US" were a bunch of people who agree with you and not with me.........I obliged you and told you why I don't like it.........And you still had to chime in about how I was wrong........Whatever dude........

I'll say it again. I don't like "wipe the wall".........I like palm forward at the top and palm up at 3:00. Some high level pitchers do turn the ball out for a brief moment at the top. I said it was NOT an absolute. Leaving room interpetation of both what you like and what I like.........But VERY FEW if any high level pitchers WIPE THE WALL from the top down to 3:00.......And ALL OF THEM are palm up BY 3:00........

And as far as you saying the palm up causes stress in the inner elbow........Where did you get that non-sense?......I can show you as many palm up clips as you want..........Certainly as many as palm out. I've been showing people this fact for 3 years now........And again.........EVERYONE turns palm up by 3:00......

Uneo DOES NOT "WIPE THE WALL" from 12:00 down to 3:00......She turns it palm up very early in the downswing.........But don't believe me.........See for yourself. See how quickly she gets the ball OFF YOUR WALL:

So much for "no stress relaxed palm out" down the circle "like Ueno".......

You seem to have a slight "god complex" IMO Steve. When someone disagrees with you it seems to bug you alot. I've been here a long time. I've contributed TONS to this forum. I've "enlightened" a hell of a lot of folks on this board. I was the one who introduced and broke down the bio-mechanics of the internal rotation concept here. I was the one who exposed the hello elbow/bowling style fallacy here..........

And I didn't contribute by "agreeing" with every concept put forth here. I agree with some, and not with others. In the end I try to be respectfull, even in disagreement.

There are many ways to skin this cat Steve.........Keep in mind, your's is NOT the only way.........

So lets set the record straight about me..........I'm ALL ABOUT sharing information. Information that I've learned/gathered/used/taught for 30 years with great success at the highest levels of the female fastpitch game. I think that's pretty obvious to most here. Oh and yes.......I pitched for almost 15 years........So I'm not "guessing"......And I'm STILL learning........

I'll end with this: Don't let your ego get in the way of a good discussion.....It really kills the learning process for everyone here............

Oh ya..........And what ever you do.......Don't watch these clips........You might not believe your own eyes.......Cause there ain't no "wall wiping" going on here........

Peace Dude.........And Keep an open mind.......You might just learn something new..........You never know.......

 

[BoardMember]

Here a few more non-wall wipers.........

And just to show you I'm not prejeduce..........Here's a wall-wiper more or less.....But she rotates off the wall to palm up before 3:00 regardless......

 

[Jillsdad]

In the words of the great Mick Jagger: "Brothers and sisters why are we fighting?!"

I just had DD do a couple of arm circles both ways. Either would be an improvement over her current form and the important thing is that she understands what the difference is. Thanks you for the posts.