Windup

[PEPPERS]

Screwball, just as many female pitchers "back in the day" used to slingshot, a lot of males did too...including Herb Dudley, Namesake of the Dudley softball.

Not sure where you're from Screwball but men's fp used to be played in parks all over the country as the "only game in town" in many places in the US. It's always fun for me to listen to people at clinics who tell stories about a local pitcher who was "one of the best" regardless of where in the country I am.

Men's softball was an international event before women's, if I'm not mistaken. And Yes, I mean fastpitch. All too often people think the state of men's game now is what it always was, and that's just not the case.

Bill

Bill

My daughters pitching coach who is in his late 60’s talks about men’s fastpitch and him playing on a team when he was younger, he is from Florida. I never heard of men’s fast-pitch teams in our area when I played baseball and slow-pitch.

He has video of him pitching back in those days and he would alternate between wind-mill, slingshot and figure eight delivery. He mentioned pitching against Herb Dudley and Eddie Feigner from King and His Court, and some others who I can't remember.

 

[halskinner]

In the SF Bay area, especially the Hayward area, it was a hotbed for fastpitch. When I was a kid, before 1970 or so, there were more men's fastpitch teams than you could count. Fastpitch results took 4 or 5 full pages of the Daily Review newspaper there. There was B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, C3, D1, D1, D3 AND E (Industrial) leagues. There were a scattered few pitchers that used the slingshot windup and a scattered few that used what they called a submarine wind up. My dad's team had league durung the week and weekend tournies almost evey weelend. I went to almost all his games.

By around 1972, I dont recall seeing any more of the pitchers that used windups other than leap and drag. My sister was a freshman in 1974 and played on our HS varsity softball team. That was the first I had heard of ot srrn girls/ womens fastpiitch. I think that was when it was first starting in my area. Going to some of her games, I dont remember any pitcher using a backswing in their wind up but I only went to a double handful of her games.

Not sure where or when the baxkswing was first developed and promoted. From my own experioence and observationa, it was not used before 1974 in the Hayward area. I also never heard of a pitching instructor in my gometown of Castro Valley.

Additional. I will also add that when I moved out in 1975 and relocated to the Modesto area, there were Mens fastpitch teams on every block, or so it seemed. Modesto and Stockton were also hotbeds then.

When I was in grade school, all the gradeschools had a Boy's fastpitch team. We didnt have 'Real' umpires, usually a parent had to do that job. There were no Boy's softball programs in Junior or Senior hgih school. So, eventually with no up and xoming feeder crop of players, fastpitch all but died.

 

[Hillhouse]

He has video of him pitching back in those days and he would alternate between wind-mill, slingshot and figure eight delivery. He mentioned pitching against Herb Dudley and Eddie Feigner from King and His Court, and some others who I can't remember.

Florida used to have the best team in the world for many years during the 1950's, Clearwater Bombers. That is where Dudley got his fame while pitching for them. They had a team up until the mid 1990's but that eventually faded. Such a shame.

I'm not a fan of doing the 'change of motion' thing that you talked about. I know Hal advocates it but, I do not. While I agree that it could totally screw up a batter and fool them, I think there are other ramifications to it which can be bad. Pitching is as much about timing and rhythm as it is anything else. When a pitcher purposely changes his/her rhythm, it can sometimes really throw them out of sync for a while and be hard to come back from. Not impossible, but hard. And it only takes one batter, one pitch to change a game and if the pitcher is out of sync from changing delivery, it's not worth it to me. And as I said, I agree that it can "fool the hitter" for sure... what about the umpire? They are human beings too. You can fool them just as easy as a hitter and they can miss one right down the middle because they were distracted by what the pitcher just did. It happens all the time. So it's sneaky and can be effective for sure but can also lead to other issues which I'm not willing to risk as a pitcher.

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

screwball, where do you live? just curious.

Didn't mean to imply that a lot of men use(d) slingshot, but it wasn't all THAT uncommon. I don't think it's any where near as good as a normal windmill but it did happen.

Rosie Black was "the queen" and her court.

Sorry to hear the men in your area had the "real sports" attitude towards you. I don't think that's why men's fp declined nationwide but I could see how people in your area may have been discouraged by that.

Bill

 

[Lozza]

(Think field hockey--men's sport in UK, men have not touched it here.)

Do the women play it there? It's HUGE for both men and women here (we've won gold medals for both)

Bill the quote of mine you've responded to of mine, we'd cleared up in another topic.

My local winter comp bans windmill and some of the men I've seen using slingshot are amazing and quick.

To a man, they all have massive shoulder problems. Every women I've known who pitched slingshot has the same.

Does anyone know when the last international pitcher who pitched slingshot was?

 

[Hillhouse]

Lozza

As much as I've been to NZ and Australia over my career, I don't recall seeing men's field hockey. Then again, I wasn't looking for that either.

It sounds like the winter comp that you're talking about is playing "modified pitch". There are 2 kinds of modified pitch, sling (which is the basic 9 man game that does not allow windmill) and bowling style which is typically played with 10 fielders and the pitchers are not allowed to do some basic movements that all fastpitch pitchers are allowed to do such as: getting turned sideways, whipping elbow, cocking wrist, etc.

There are a lot of people who can throw hard slingshot but I believe they pale in comparison to windmill pitching. Yes, I know there were some great pitchers "back in the day" that threw slingshot but, as time has gone by and we've learned more about how the body works and how to get the most out of it, we've learned that windmill is how to generate more power, especially as the rules have been transformed for pitching too in some areas. American football kickers USED to kick straight forward with a flat toe shoe... now they have learned how to get more power by going diagonal. It's no different than the pitching follow through which still gets taught of coming straight up, yet nothing in any sport we play does the body get it's power going straight, it's always across the body.

I have no idea who the last INT pitcher to throw sling was. Wow, great trivia.

 

[starsnuffer]

In the SF Bay area, especially the Hayward area, it was a hotbed for fastpitch. When I was a kid, before 1970 or so, there were more men's fastpitch teams than you could count. Fastpitch results took 4 or 5 full pages of the Daily Review newspaper there. There was B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, C3, D1, D1, D3 AND E (Industrial) leagues. There were a scattered few pitchers that used the slingshot windup and a scattered few that used what they called a submarine wind up. My dad's team had league durung the week and weekend tournies almost evey weelend. I went to almost all his games.

By around 1972, I dont recall seeing any more of the pitchers that used windups other than leap and drag. My sister was a freshman in 1974 and played on our HS varsity softball team. That was the first I had heard of ot srrn girls/ womens fastpiitch. I think that was when it was first starting in my area. Going to some of her games, I dont remember any pitcher using a backswing in their wind up but I only went to a double handful of her games.

Not sure where or when the baxkswing was first developed and promoted. From my own experioence and observationa, it was not used before 1974 in the Hayward area. I also never heard of a pitching instructor in my gometown of Castro Valley.

Additional. I will also add that when I moved out in 1975 and relocated to the Modesto area, there were Mens fastpitch teams on every block, or so it seemed. Modesto and Stockton were also hotbeds then.

When I was in grade school, all the gradeschools had a Boy's fastpitch team. We didnt have 'Real' umpires, usually a parent had to do that job. There were no Boy's softball programs in Junior or Senior hgih school. So, eventually with no up and xoming feeder crop of players, fastpitch all but died.

There's still some "old guys" out in Hayward playing FP. Fred Williams was my daughters first pitching coach (when she was 9). He's does a lot of tournament directing these days for ASA stuff out of Hayward, and I know he's giving lessons to a few "young men" to keep FP going in the area.

-W

 

[dbias]

Florida used to have the best team in the world for many years during the 1950's, Clearwater Bombers. That is where Dudley got his fame while pitching for them. They had a team up until the mid 1990's but that eventually faded. Such a shame.

I'm not a fan of doing the 'change of motion' thing that you talked about. I know Hal advocates it but, I do not. While I agree that it could totally screw up a batter and fool them, I think there are other ramifications to it which can be bad. Pitching is as much about timing and rhythm as it is anything else. When a pitcher purposely changes his/her rhythm, it can sometimes really throw them out of sync for a while and be hard to come back from. Not impossible, but hard. And it only takes one batter, one pitch to change a game and if the pitcher is out of sync from changing delivery, it's not worth it to me. And as I said, I agree that it can "fool the hitter" for sure... what about the umpire? They are human beings too. You can fool them just as easy as a hitter and they can miss one right down the middle because they were distracted by what the pitcher just did. It happens all the time. So it's sneaky and can be effective for sure but can also lead to other issues which I'm not willing to risk as a pitcher.

Bill

My DD uses a Hillhouse style pitching motion and has benefited from it greatly. Her PC Adam has clocked her into the low 60's now and she turned 15 this spring. I have read Hal's book and I too have shyed away from changing the delivery speed as I do not want to upset the applecart so to speak. The one thing that my DD loves to do thought is using varying amounts of time after taking the sign. Very effective and gets in to batters head more than one would think especially if you follow Hal's advice on what to do if the batter backs out for time. lol that tears them down.