Windup
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- May 25, 2010
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The ideal windup is the one which allows the pitcher to achieve his/her goal with the least amount of effort. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here.
This is a good topic. A couple of things to think about. Is hiding the grip important so as not to tip-off the pitch? Might be important as the hitters get older and better. Does the extreme arm swing back (e.g. Finch) put a lot of strain on the shoulder complex and does it add anything to the speed of the pitch or is it more for timing and stylistic? Does it help the glove arm from "swimming" as much during release? Lastly, is the Hillhouse technique already banned internationally, and if so, is the US next? (see Dallas E. thread).
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,388
- 113
I don't know what to say about this one. I am certainly not going to pretend to be the world's best or have the market cornered on anything but, I can tell you that everything I do when pitching is for a purpose. I have literally tried EVERYTHING known to man in terms of wind ups, grips, etc.
I like Jennie. I think she is a great role model for kids. But I don't think she has great pitching mechanics. I think she has size that helps her get away with not having great mechanics. You cannot teach size.
Here's the reality... a lot of pitchers in the history of women's softball had mechanics where they drop out of their glove. Osterman, Finch, Fernandez, etc. But it's only been recent that "picking" pitchers has become relevant in women's softball. On occasion the last few weeks, my girlfriend would have the WCWS on and I watched the Alabama pitchers do that goofy turn sideways before pitching... an obvious attempt to hide their pitches from the prying eyes of a 3base coach. Reality check, there was no need to do that big turn other than for the "look of it". But, anyway... as more and more male fastpitch guys enter the college game: Earlywhine (Mizzou), Larabee (Arkansas), Bargefeldt (Tulsa), D'Arcy (AS State), Eriksen (S.Florida), Magnusson (Utah State), Thompson (Utah), Turner (San Jose St), etc. (I could go on with more) the more the art of picking pitchers will come into effect. It's how top flight men's fastpitch is played and about the only way a lot of guys can get hits... by reading the pitcher. The art of reading pitchers at the men's world tournament is so sophisticated, hitters will read forearm muscles of the pitcher to see which ones flex for various pitches. Getting that advantage of what pitch is coming is HUGE. It's how games are won and lost.
Yet, 99% of 'hitting coaches' have no concept of this. They teach a "great swing" but not how to hit the ball. There's a difference. Moreover, the dad's and baseball hitting coaches who've never played fastpitch have no clue how to teach hitting a riseball. "Lay off it" is the saying... yea right. It's downright comical.
Nobody taught me how to pick pitchers but I started doing it when I was 14 years old. Simple observation of what pitchers do can give away sooooooo much. Instead, most girls are not watching or paying attention.. they singing in dugouts, chanting, beating waterbottles around for noise, etc. Yet, if they watched the pitcher they would see her get the ball grip at her hip prior to going into the glove or something basic that would tip the pitch. It honestly baffles me how this happens so frequently.
So, this is a long winded saying that if you want to do the back arm swing thing, go ahead. But the time is quickly approaching where doing that is going to really come back to bit the pitchers' butt. There is a reason why your catcher doesn't give signals by raising their hand up high and giving the numbers... they try to hide it. Yet the pitchers lose that hidden pitch when they show everyone the ball and the grip on it.
Last week I did a clinic in Atlanta with Dave Paetkau and Jenn Yee. Yee was an All American at Georgia Tech with unreal stats. Dave is a former player in the mens' game that was one of the toughest outs around. While he teaches what he considers correct swing mechanics, he also spends a good potion of time teaching the hitter how to read the pitcher. Read the pitches. Identify spin. Etc. That is simply invaluable. Yee was teaching it too. She will tell you her success is directly tied to her ability to read pitchers.
My point is, dropping out of the glove is not good mechanically. It doesn't help the pitcher (and in many cases it actually reduces power). But more than that, the time is coming when hitters will use that to their advantage. Its slowly happening now. My advice is to teach them how to strike out Crystl Bustos, not Crystl Jones in your rec league. Bustos is trying to read the pitcher... thats why she's great.
Bill
I like Jennie. I think she is a great role model for kids. But I don't think she has great pitching mechanics. I think she has size that helps her get away with not having great mechanics. You cannot teach size.
Here's the reality... a lot of pitchers in the history of women's softball had mechanics where they drop out of their glove. Osterman, Finch, Fernandez, etc. But it's only been recent that "picking" pitchers has become relevant in women's softball. On occasion the last few weeks, my girlfriend would have the WCWS on and I watched the Alabama pitchers do that goofy turn sideways before pitching... an obvious attempt to hide their pitches from the prying eyes of a 3base coach. Reality check, there was no need to do that big turn other than for the "look of it". But, anyway... as more and more male fastpitch guys enter the college game: Earlywhine (Mizzou), Larabee (Arkansas), Bargefeldt (Tulsa), D'Arcy (AS State), Eriksen (S.Florida), Magnusson (Utah State), Thompson (Utah), Turner (San Jose St), etc. (I could go on with more) the more the art of picking pitchers will come into effect. It's how top flight men's fastpitch is played and about the only way a lot of guys can get hits... by reading the pitcher. The art of reading pitchers at the men's world tournament is so sophisticated, hitters will read forearm muscles of the pitcher to see which ones flex for various pitches. Getting that advantage of what pitch is coming is HUGE. It's how games are won and lost.
Yet, 99% of 'hitting coaches' have no concept of this. They teach a "great swing" but not how to hit the ball. There's a difference. Moreover, the dad's and baseball hitting coaches who've never played fastpitch have no clue how to teach hitting a riseball. "Lay off it" is the saying... yea right. It's downright comical.
Nobody taught me how to pick pitchers but I started doing it when I was 14 years old. Simple observation of what pitchers do can give away sooooooo much. Instead, most girls are not watching or paying attention.. they singing in dugouts, chanting, beating waterbottles around for noise, etc. Yet, if they watched the pitcher they would see her get the ball grip at her hip prior to going into the glove or something basic that would tip the pitch. It honestly baffles me how this happens so frequently.
So, this is a long winded saying that if you want to do the back arm swing thing, go ahead. But the time is quickly approaching where doing that is going to really come back to bit the pitchers' butt. There is a reason why your catcher doesn't give signals by raising their hand up high and giving the numbers... they try to hide it. Yet the pitchers lose that hidden pitch when they show everyone the ball and the grip on it.
Last week I did a clinic in Atlanta with Dave Paetkau and Jenn Yee. Yee was an All American at Georgia Tech with unreal stats. Dave is a former player in the mens' game that was one of the toughest outs around. While he teaches what he considers correct swing mechanics, he also spends a good potion of time teaching the hitter how to read the pitcher. Read the pitches. Identify spin. Etc. That is simply invaluable. Yee was teaching it too. She will tell you her success is directly tied to her ability to read pitchers.
My point is, dropping out of the glove is not good mechanically. It doesn't help the pitcher (and in many cases it actually reduces power). But more than that, the time is coming when hitters will use that to their advantage. Its slowly happening now. My advice is to teach them how to strike out Crystl Bustos, not Crystl Jones in your rec league. Bustos is trying to read the pitcher... thats why she's great.
Bill
I agree with Bill concerning dropping out of the glove and then pitch does provide the batter a look at the pitch before a pitcher releases it. But I totally disagree with loss of power or speed. I did experiment earlier in my private pitching career with the straight over the head (like almost all men's pitchers) to the drop and go method most women use now. I found that all my student did not loose any power, speed, or control either way. So I do not dictate to them which method they should use I let them gravitate to what works best for them. If a student comes to me using the drop and go method unless there are major problems I pretty much let them stay that way. But If I have a young student who is just starting we work both ways of delivering a pitch and most go with the drop and go and some use the direct over the head delivery. I do make sure that they do not show their grip prior to comng out of the glove to deliver the pitch that getting a grip prior to going into the glove drives me crazy.
When I learned, I just dove down and then out and up.... They did not see the ball until I was at 3:00.... Now, if I throw, I usually just drop my arm down to my side out of my glove, but I do not force a back-swing.... Too much energy to bring my arm the opposite direction I am actually going, plus more time for the batter to see the ball...
I like to show the ball as little as possible! Now many of my students do a back-swing... I don't change what is not hurting them, but an excessive back-swing looks like it eventually would affect the shoulder joint from the quick stop and reverse direction I would think. But I was not a pitcher who did that... I was taught by a man, maybe that is why, like Hillhouse said, men have been reading pitchers for many years.
Good luck!
I like to show the ball as little as possible! Now many of my students do a back-swing... I don't change what is not hurting them, but an excessive back-swing looks like it eventually would affect the shoulder joint from the quick stop and reverse direction I would think. But I was not a pitcher who did that... I was taught by a man, maybe that is why, like Hillhouse said, men have been reading pitchers for many years.
Good luck!
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,388
- 113
Coach Stan
I didn't say all cases it reduced. But in cases where the pitcher locks their elbow.. only uses one arm to push forward, gets no elbow snap, and STILL shows everyone the ball.... it most defintely makes them lose power in the LONG term.
Besides, for me personally, I'd rather be a few mph slower, have better movement, and not show anyone my grip, than have super speed that doesn't move and there's no surprise involved in the pitch (or in change up which also can be read).
Bill
I didn't say all cases it reduced. But in cases where the pitcher locks their elbow.. only uses one arm to push forward, gets no elbow snap, and STILL shows everyone the ball.... it most defintely makes them lose power in the LONG term.
Besides, for me personally, I'd rather be a few mph slower, have better movement, and not show anyone my grip, than have super speed that doesn't move and there's no surprise involved in the pitch (or in change up which also can be read).
Bill
- Feb 17, 2011
- 201
- 16
I have seen an increase in coachs trying to read the pitchers grip in the past few years. DD uses Hillhouses' motion that hides the ball in the glove and keeps the elbow bent and has done very well with it. Other teams coachs have from time to time appealed to the ump that she was not "presenting" the ball. Of course we have a meeting at home plate and I have always won the arguement but it is funny to see the other coaches and players fall apart because they cant see the ball in the windup. On another note this motion has also helped her in getting turned sideways and getting the plant foot down on the powerline.
