Welcome to Bulletspin Season!

[LEsoftballdad]

I enjoy learning from you a lot! But you not believing in a screw ball is weird to me.

Why is it weird to think the screw isn't a true movement pitch? Think about the spin you need to impart on the ball to make it break to the right. You would need the arm and wrist angle to be at such a twisted position that it is unrealistic to get the ball to spin enough to actually move. Heck, even curves don't move as much as most people believe because of how you need to position your wrist.

Softball pitches are harder to create movement than baseball because of the arm and wrist angles and release points.

 

[DropcityUSA]

At the end of the day, spin has very little to do with the movement of most pitches, as it’s not what causes the movement. Movement is caused by pressure differences around the ball from rough and smooth surfaces, combined with the pitch angle.

 

[CoachJD]

I enjoy learning from you a lot! But you not believing in a screw ball is weird to me.

Please define what you think a screwball is.

 

[Hillhouse]

I enjoy learning from you a lot! But you not believing in a screw ball is weird to me.

Fair enough. If you believe that pitch needs to spin in the direction of it's movement: dropball spins forward, curveball sideways, and ultimately try to get the rise to spin backward. There isn't a RHP who can make a ball spin sideways where it curves inward to a RHB.

If you wanna talk about the benefits of pitching inside, I'll do that with you all day long. But we have to start that conversation by admitting the ball doesn't curve inward.

 

[sluggers]

Paying for a free screwball is still overpaying for it.

LOL.

 

[sluggers]

I enjoy learning from you a lot! But you not believing in a screw ball is weird to me.

First, we have to define "screwball." A screwball is a pitch with something like 3-9 spin.

There's no evidence that one has ever been thrown in a game. *NONE* I offered a reward for a video of someone, anyone throwing one in a game. I've still got my money. (This is "sluggers paradox"--if every pitcher after 10U throws a screwball, shouldn't there be a video?)

The best movement pitcher in the woman's game was Cat Osterman. She never claimed to have thrown one.

@Hillhouse has been around the both men's and women's game forever. Rick Pauly, whose been around the game forever and a day, says the same thing. I've been around the game a lot, not near as much as Rick or Bill, and I've not seen one. My mentor (Ed Serdar) pitched A-ball for literally decades and never saw one.

The screwball was mainly a "step left-throw right" pitch. The pitcher would take an exaggerated step to her left and then throw right, resulting in a different angle. The pitching lane (adopted in 2009) stopped that pitch in D1. D3 doesn't "mind the lane" as well, so the "step left-throw right" is still around there.

 

[Hillhouse]

At the end of the day, spin has very little to do with the movement of most pitches, as it’s not what causes the movement. Movement is caused by pressure differences around the ball from rough and smooth surfaces, combined with the pitch angle.

I'm sure it's true that pressure differences matter. There's probably a lot of things beyond my understanding regarding the rough/smooth surfaces on the ball. Anyone who's ever had the pleasure of watching a cricket match will notice the "bowler" (the pitcher) often rubs the all on his pants constantly. They want one side to the ball to be shiny and the other side to be rough to affect the ball during it's delivery. When they play the 5 day matches, they wear all white uniforms and you can see giant red streaks on their pants from rubbing the red ball on the shiny side. But, all of that stuff about airflow, shiny side, rough side, etc. is above my comprehension. I don't even know what the Magnus effect is if I'm being honest.

But, I also can't wrap my head around thinking the spin doesn't matter. I'm having a hard time understanding that. How did you come to conclusion?

 

[sluggers]

At the end of the day, spin has very little to do with the movement of most pitches, as it’s not what causes the movement. Movement is caused by pressure differences around the ball from rough and smooth surfaces, combined with the pitch angle.

There are two ways to get movement.

Method 1: Spin the ball, which is the basis for the drop ball, the backspin rise, and the curve. (The Magnus Effect-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect)

Method 2: Assymetric seam orientation. This is a relatively new concept for softball, but not for baseball or cricket. The idea is to have the seams assymetric during flight. For baseball and softball, you put bulletspin on the ball, and you change the axis of rotation so it is not collinear with the motion of the ball. This seams are assymetric (as seen by the catcher). There is more drag on one side of the ball than the other, which causes the ball to curve. In baseball, the screwball and knuckleball use this method.

One of the most difficult parts of throwing any movement pitches is moving back and forth between the pitches. With the prevalence of bullet spin, I think very few D1 pitchers have any movement.

 

[DropcityUSA]

I'm sure it's true that pressure differences matter. There's probably a lot of things beyond my understanding regarding the rough/smooth surfaces on the ball. Anyone who's ever had the pleasure of watching a cricket match will notice the "bowler" (the pitcher) often rubs the all on his pants constantly. They want one side to the ball to be shiny and the other side to be rough to affect the ball during it's delivery. When they play the 5 day matches, they wear all white uniforms and you can see giant red streaks on their pants from rubbing the red ball on the shiny side. But, all of that stuff about airflow, shiny side, rough side, etc. is above my comprehension. I don't even know what the Magnus effect is if I'm being honest.

But, I also can't wrap my head around thinking the spin doesn't matter. I'm having a hard time understanding that. How did you come to conclusion?

Because laminar flow is more powerful than the magnus effect. Laminar will move a ball without spin. Spin a ball with the opposite laminar force and it isn’t moving the direction you want it to move based on spin. I’ve seen a curve ball demonstrated with proper curve spin and an opposing laminar and it goes more in.

That’s also how a screwball is thrown. Not with spin, but using laminar and seam orientation.

Just like HD cameras showed that high-end pitchers weren’t using HE, newer technology is also now showing that most pitchers aren’t spinning balls to make them move (outside of drops), it’s slight changes in release angle and laminar flow.

And yes, much more study had been done in cricket than softball.

 

[earlg3]

First, we have to define "screwball." A screwball is a pitch with something like 3-9 spin.

There's no evidence that one has ever been thrown in a game. *NONE* I offered a reward for a video of someone, anyone throwing one in a game. I've still got my money. (This is "sluggers paradox"--if every pitcher after 10U throws a screwball, shouldn't there be a video?)

The best movement pitcher in the woman's game was Cat Osterman. She never claimed to have thrown one.

@Hillhouse has been around the both men's and women's game forever. Rick Pauly, whose been around the game forever and a day, says the same thing. I've been around the game a lot, not near as much as Rick or Bill, and I've not seen one. My mentor (Ed Serdar) pitched A-ball for literally decades and never saw one.

The screwball was mainly a "step left-throw right" pitch. The pitcher would take an exaggerated step to her left and then throw right, resulting in a different angle. The pitching lane (adopted in 2009) stopped that pitch in D1. D3 doesn't "mind the lane" as well, so the "step left-throw right" is still around there.

Watching Duke's pitchers and some others this year, I'm not sure the pitching lane is a real thing in D1 either.