Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[bucket pinata]

If they have a side arm throw I think it might be a bullet spin of some sort. If they throw over the top not so much. that's like comparing hello elbow paint the line having your wrist behind the ball Im sure 12/6 would be the most common spin, If you use IR not so much in my experience..

Just a question. Do people who throw well overhand do it with bullet spin? Hand behind the ball over the top same from down under.

 

[CoachFP]

Side arm or 3/4's the ball still will spin back against the fingers. Infielders in softball can drop down due to the shorter distances. No bullet spin is seen in my experience.

 

[zwb0218]

[/QUOTE]

RB
You make a good point here. It is amazing to me how many pitchers cannot spin a ball backwards....I'm not talking about when they try to pitch a riseball...I'm talking about just spinning it backwards to themselves. This is one reason why I suggest learning how to spin a ball backwards at a relatively early stage of pitching development. If I had a pitcher with bullet spin, I'd attempt to have her modify it into backspin as you did....but I would do this immediately. As you have found out, as the girls progress it becomes more important that they have ball movement....or in the case of a riseball---movement that the brain doesn't understand very well.
As you experienced, the transition from bullet spin to rise spin was easier than transitioning from years of dropspin.

Could you please elaborate on how to spin the ball “backwards to themselves." I’m a bit confused on whether it should be approached from the side like a rise or the back like a change. Thanks!

 

[ArmWhip]

Comparing the overhand action to the windmill is tricky. In baseball you would have to ask is Mariano Rivera's cut fastball as fast as his regular fastball? Then you would be comparing bullet spin to backspin. But the overhand action is much more linear coming into the release than the windmill action is and you can't take what works in one and apply it to the other.

For those of you who think that the wrist is a hinge and the hand is a lever please describe anatomically how this works. In order for this action to generate any energy the wrist has to cock before it snaps, this is classic HE teaching regardless of whether it happens with IR or not. The hinge/lever idea will not stand up to the Hanson Principle, you will not find any video of a quality pitcher with her wrist cocked coming into release.

The whip analogy is not appropriate for describing the lower arm action, it's better for understanding how the energy gets from the body to the arm but that's it. A whip transfers energy, it doesn't generate it or store it. The fishing rod is much better, the rod doesn't create energy, it stores the energy created by the fisherman and unloads it at the proper time. This is what the wrist-hand do but not to any great degree.

In order to understand how a bullet spin pitch might be as fast as a topspin pitch you need to look closely at the mechanics of the arm. You don't need to go out and pitch, you need to get a ball and play around with it in a place where there are no windows or lamps. I am not surprised that Bill H doesn't understand the cupped wrist-bullet spin thing, the men don't throw curveballs and they have their own way of throwing the riseball. As a general rule the men and women throw the riseball differently. Most riseballs in women's fastpitch are really bullet spin with a little tilt. There was YouTube clip of Ueno posted the other day and the slo-mo look at her rise showed tilted bullet spin. The women throw bullet spin, the men throw backspin, the two actions are very different, in one key area they are opposites. The bullet spin action employs some additional arm movement/leverage that has the potential to make up for the speed lost to spin.

Women throw the rise with a cupped wrist, as they attempt to slide their fingers under the ball the forearm is internally rotating. This IR move is in addition the IR motion of the upper arm and coupled with the cupped wrist adds some velocity to pitch. BM has alluded many times to idea of having the hand under the ball at the 9 o'clock position, this position facilitates the bullet spin, cupped rise ball action. I don't think that this position is common in the men's game (Bill can speak to that) and it is an important difference between the BM and BH methods. Important point, bullet-rise spin is thrown with internal rotation of the forearm.

Men throw the rise with a cocked wrist, Bill H nailed it with the "turning the light bulb" analogy. This method favors backspin not bullet spin. To throw the rise with this method the forearm externally rotates, just the opposite from the bullet-rise. To throw this type of rise ball the hand should be on the side of the ball at the 9 o'clock position. This hand-ball position also makes it easier to throw top spin. One conclusion I have recently drawn from having thought about all this; if you want your daughter to throw a true backspin riseball ween her away from bulletspin, which favors the cupped wrist rise.

So how does the bullet-rise contain the potential for additional velocity to make up for the energy lost to spin? Internal Rotation by itself adds nothing to velocity without the ball being 'off' the axis of rotation (IR with a straight elbow gets you nothing). The further the ball is off center the more energy-velocity is created. The bullet-rise action uses forearm IR and cupping the wrist puts the ball more off center for both the upper arm and forearm IR.

Disclaimer; I am sure that not all women throw the bullet-rise, although I think that it's rare to see one with true backspin.

 

[BoardMember]

The question was which would be faster. BM, you never answered the question, which do you think would be faster?

Actually I did Dad.......Back post 33.......

 

[Doug Romrell]

In order for this action to generate any energy the wrist has to cock before it snaps

Nothing personal, but I think this is complete nonsense.

An un-cocked wrist can still intensify the energy generated from up the chain, as can the fingers. And, I'm not talking about the hand-waiving action preached by the hello elbow advocates. I'm talking in the context of IR.

 

[BoardMember]

It's ok FP......We can agree to disagree........Here's what I'll say, and I don't ask you to agree with me.........

My research both ON and off the field tell me that to accomplish bullet spin, I/R continues all the way through release.........FULL I/R from out to in toward body........Without the need to manipulate the axis for 6/12........

You won't find anyone throwing Peel 6/12 rotation with THIS AMOUNT of I/R rotation/whip...........

There is still I/R if done correctly.......But it isn't this complete in an effort to guide the laces/axis to 6/12........

IMO........It's the fastest pitch BECAUSE the mechanics of full I/R whip........The formula I think you are missing is the TORQUE involved in I/R.........Think of is as a wrench on the side of a nut, vs. a screwdriver on top of a screw........One is infinitely more powerful then the other...........The fingers under the ball with full I/R is more accurately the wrench vs. the screwdriver...........

The just a fact of physics..........

 

[Ken B]

Love that gif! Noodle hands!

 

[Ken B]

I think a lot of people on this board would benefit from taking 15 minutes at your team practice and pitching the ball to your team's catcher. Try it for yourself. I'm not saying train and go all out to make the US National team. But, questions like this would be answered if people did it for themselves.

Good advice.

 

[colin]

is the above gif an example of thumb down while the hand is still inside the ball?