My Granpa once told me "When you're at a get together never talk about religion, politics or the riseball." I keep forgetting!!!!
Thanks for the input Bill, but it's still theoretical. I have always thought that topspin would be the fastest but now I'm not so sure. I was hoping that someone who has had a radar gun on a top pitcher who throws a bulletspin fastball and a drop (like Cat O) would chime in with some real numbers. Come on Rick, you must have put on a gun on a pitcher who throws both.
My reasons for doubt have to do with the subtle actions of the arm before and at release. We are all familiar with the term IR, it refers to the internal rotation of arm, the bicep points toward 2nd on the downswing and toward home after release. But this a rather general description and a closer look at what the arm does reveals that the upper arm and the forearm each have a rotation of their own. These two rotations are coordinated, the forearm rotation is overlooked. I think of it as major and minor, upper arm being major, forearm being minor.
Forearm (minor) internal rotation is easily demonstrated, just hold your hand out and turn it from palm up to palm down, the bicep-upper arm doesn't have to move at all. Next we have to consider the mechanical advantage offered by internal rotation, it is dependent upon the amount of flex-bend in the joint that is being rotated. If the arm is straight internal rotation gains you nothing, it is the flex-bend in the elbow that provides the mechanical advantage and generates velocity. Generally speaking the more flex-bend you have the more you gain. But there is a subtler, more accurate way of looking at this. In the case of the upper arm if the bone (humerus) is the center of the rotation then the further the ball is from this axis the more mechanical advantage you gain. Although there may be a point of diminishing return where there is not enough strength to apply the needed leverage. I have always thought that in general pitchers with long arms (Sarah Pauly, Jennie Finch) have less elbow flex-bend but since their arms are longer the ball may be just as far from the axis of rotation as a shorter armed pitcher and their mechanical gain maybe equal or greater.
The same principle applies to the minor IR action of the forearm, the further the ball is from the axis of rotation the more you gain. In this case the flex-bend at the wrist is what multiplies the advantage. There are two ways for the wrist to bend to get this advantage, one is to cup the ball, this puts the ball away from the axis of rotation. There is another way and it is something that you can see in good clear video of some pitchers. I first noticed it in some video that I took of Danielle Henderson, it puzzled me for a long time. The technical term is radial deviation. To get a feel for it just hold your hand up in front of you in the classic HE finish. As you look at your palm you will notice that the middle finger will be roughly lined up with the center/axis of the forearm, to get radial deviation flex your wrist so that the ring or even little finger are lined up with the axis. This position might not seem like it gives you much of an advantage but for those of you who can go out and actually throw a ball give it a try. If you're still not convinced then bend your wrist in the opposite direction (ulnar deviation) and throw some pitches, you'll notice a big difference. Actually I think there's the potential for a change up in this position.
The bottom line; I'm thinking that in cupping the wrist to throw bullet spin you are gaining speed from the minor IR of the forearm, plus the bend in the wrist is added to distance that the ball is from the axis of major IR and you get an added advantage. But it's all theoretical without some hard numbers.
Thanks for the input Bill, but it's still theoretical. I have always thought that topspin would be the fastest but now I'm not so sure. I was hoping that someone who has had a radar gun on a top pitcher who throws a bulletspin fastball and a drop (like Cat O) would chime in with some real numbers. Come on Rick, you must have put on a gun on a pitcher who throws both.
My reasons for doubt have to do with the subtle actions of the arm before and at release. We are all familiar with the term IR, it refers to the internal rotation of arm, the bicep points toward 2nd on the downswing and toward home after release. But this a rather general description and a closer look at what the arm does reveals that the upper arm and the forearm each have a rotation of their own. These two rotations are coordinated, the forearm rotation is overlooked. I think of it as major and minor, upper arm being major, forearm being minor.
Forearm (minor) internal rotation is easily demonstrated, just hold your hand out and turn it from palm up to palm down, the bicep-upper arm doesn't have to move at all. Next we have to consider the mechanical advantage offered by internal rotation, it is dependent upon the amount of flex-bend in the joint that is being rotated. If the arm is straight internal rotation gains you nothing, it is the flex-bend in the elbow that provides the mechanical advantage and generates velocity. Generally speaking the more flex-bend you have the more you gain. But there is a subtler, more accurate way of looking at this. In the case of the upper arm if the bone (humerus) is the center of the rotation then the further the ball is from this axis the more mechanical advantage you gain. Although there may be a point of diminishing return where there is not enough strength to apply the needed leverage. I have always thought that in general pitchers with long arms (Sarah Pauly, Jennie Finch) have less elbow flex-bend but since their arms are longer the ball may be just as far from the axis of rotation as a shorter armed pitcher and their mechanical gain maybe equal or greater.
The same principle applies to the minor IR action of the forearm, the further the ball is from the axis of rotation the more you gain. In this case the flex-bend at the wrist is what multiplies the advantage. There are two ways for the wrist to bend to get this advantage, one is to cup the ball, this puts the ball away from the axis of rotation. There is another way and it is something that you can see in good clear video of some pitchers. I first noticed it in some video that I took of Danielle Henderson, it puzzled me for a long time. The technical term is radial deviation. To get a feel for it just hold your hand up in front of you in the classic HE finish. As you look at your palm you will notice that the middle finger will be roughly lined up with the center/axis of the forearm, to get radial deviation flex your wrist so that the ring or even little finger are lined up with the axis. This position might not seem like it gives you much of an advantage but for those of you who can go out and actually throw a ball give it a try. If you're still not convinced then bend your wrist in the opposite direction (ulnar deviation) and throw some pitches, you'll notice a big difference. Actually I think there's the potential for a change up in this position.
The bottom line; I'm thinking that in cupping the wrist to throw bullet spin you are gaining speed from the minor IR of the forearm, plus the bend in the wrist is added to distance that the ball is from the axis of major IR and you get an added advantage. But it's all theoretical without some hard numbers.
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