Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[pumpkinbear]

BM - "You (and others) teach pitchers that whip MUST INCLUDE 6/12 rotation"

I don't recall Bill ever putting quite it like that. At least since 2008 (when I began my descent into madness), Bill has forcefully advocated that the pitch should change planes and use topspin or backspin. I believe Bill would try to fix any bullet spin pitch whether or not it's produced with I/R, and Bill's "students who had bullet spin that lost it when they were instructed to whip or snap their elbow harder at the release" are a consequence of Bill either tweaking or overhauling (depending on the need) technique to produce the desired spin.

Unless you're saying that bullet spin is the only possible outcome of proper I/R, (and I know you don't--your down-and-in-spinny-graphic shows a 7/1? spin) then I don't see much of a disagreement between the two of you.

You seem more willing to accept bullet spin as a possible outcome of I/R or whip than Bill.

My 11-yr-old produces both bullet and topspin randomly on her fastball, so this discussion is very timely for me.

 

[LeftiesDad]

What I hear BM saying is that he focusses on getting the mechanics of the whip correct first and foremost. That the proper whip mechanics in the raw can and will product a bullet spin. Once feels the mechanics are correct he teaches the student how to alter the spin angle to a proper 12-6 top spin. He doesn't allow the eventual end goal of a 12-6 spin to cloud the process of developing the arm whip. One only assumes he also gives the student the ability to effect that so the 12-6 is straight on to the or angles to produce a slider or cutter.

 

[JJsqueeze]

just typing to get to 10 characters to post...i'd do a gif but RDBASS says I am still a rookie and am not allowed to try funny gifs yet.

 

[CoachFP]

If the hand is not behind the ball at release, maximum velocity is not obtained. The bullet spin outcome does not require the hand to be behind the ball but twisting first base to third base (if a righty). To be happy with bullet spin or encourage it for too long makes it harder to undo it later. What I find interesting to note is that I don't ever recall a male pitcher that had bullet spin. There were pitchers whose ball didn't move that much but never because of the bullet spin.

 

[BoardMember]

BM - "You (and others) teach pitchers that whip MUST INCLUDE 6/12 rotation"

I don't recall Bill ever putting quite it like that. At least since 2008 (when I began my descent into madness), Bill has forcefully advocated that the pitch should change planes and use topspin or backspin.

I get it Pumkin........(wow that sounds funny on V-Day)........

However, what Bill said is this.......And I quote: "Personally, I teach 6/12 rotation along with the mechanics, not separately because I believe they go hand in hand."

I pretty knew that already. And he confirmed it as quoted above...........As I said.........There are many instructors who will not teach whip without 6/12 rotation being a KEY FOCUS.........I'm simply saying I CAN and DO separate learning to whip the ball from learning rotational spin direction and seam orientation to effect movement.

Like I said........Two different ways to the same goal.........What I can tell you is that my young rec ball pitchers aren't "bouncing the ball over the catcher heads" try to learn drop..........Or throwing "ballons" to reach the plate.........For exactly the reasons I stated.

And by the time they grow in both level and maturity.........They are spinning the ball with the best.......WITH VELOCITY AND WHIP......

Now PLEASE PEOPLE..........Don't start an argument between Bill and I........He has his way and I have mine.........

BOTH WORK.........

 

[bucket pinata]

BM I agree with you, when my DDs throw straight gas you can see the spin rate and it always comes out as some form of bullet spin.When we want movement we the turn the wheel(nice analogy) and get a crop, straight drop, Rise. But when they are warming up the IR/Whip I look for a smoking fast Bullet spin. don't really understand how It can be any other way. Bill I respect you allot and you were a beacon of common sense in a sea of Hello elbow a few years ago, for that my DDs and I will be always grateful. Wish I could get a grasp of what your getting at. To me I'm having trouble understanding the difference between what you and what BM teach. I'm a little amazed there is such disagreement.

 

[Madsdad]

I look at this thread and wonder how it got to this point. The question was which would be faster. BM, you never answered the question, which do you think would be faster?
From my own experience I watch this every time dd warms up, the axis it tilted sightly 10/4 then 11/5 and before you know it 12/6 When she is getting what I would call a good finish all the way through the pitch she hits her top speeds.

 

[CoachFP]

Just a question. Do people who throw well overhand do it with bullet spin? Hand behind the ball over the top same from down under.

 

[bucket pinata]

If they have a side arm throw I think it might be a bullet spin of some sort. If they throw over the top not so much. that's like comparing hello elbow paint the line having your wrist behind the ball Im sure 12/6 would be the most common spin, If you use IR not so much in my experience..

Just a question. Do people who throw well overhand do it with bullet spin? Hand behind the ball over the top same from down under.

 

[CoachFP]

Side arm or 3/4's the ball still will spin back against the fingers. Infielders in softball can drop down due to the shorter distances. No bullet spin is seen in my experience.