Throwing

[FiveFrameSwing]

Very nice MrT.

IMO it is possible to externally rotate the lead thigh and externally rotate the throwing arm at the same time, without TE. The lack of thoracic mobility is a widespread issue IMO.

Likewise, it is possible to TE, and externally rotate the throwing arm, without externally rotating the lead thigh ... although you may have to think about it, because the default is likely that you pretty much have it automated.

Keep studying video and performing under-the-hood experiments.

A few more questions to ponder …

Do you feel that TE and external rotation of the throwing arm occur at virtually the same time?

As you experiment with different intensities of TE, do you find the degree to which you surpass the “L” changes?

 

[Mr T]

Very nice MrT.

IMO it is possible to externally rotate the lead thigh and externally rotate the throwing arm at the same time, without TE. The lack of thoracic mobility is a widespread issue IMO.

Likewise, it is possible to TE, and externally rotate the throwing arm, without externally rotating the lead thigh ... although you may have to think about it, because the default is likely that you pretty much have it automated.

Keep studying video and performing under-the-hood experiments.

A few more questions to ponder …

Do you feel that TE and external rotation of the throwing arm occur at virtually the same time?

As you experiment with different intensities of TE, do you find the degree to which you surpass the “L” changes?

Definitely possible to externally rotate the thigh and arm without TE. But my thinking at the moment is that it is less "natural". If you stand with your arm externally rotated and horizontal to the ground like Wellphyte recommends, and then extend your thorax it seems pretty natural to start externally rotating your arm.

I'll try to get answers to your questions. I feel slo mo throws would be insufficient. I need to do some real throws and video tape them.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Definitely possible to externally rotate the thigh and arm without TE. But my thinking at the moment is that it is less "natural". If you stand with your arm externally rotated and horizontal to the ground like Wellphyte recommends, and then extend your thorax it seems pretty natural to start externally rotating your arm.

I'll try to get answers to your questions. I feel slo mo throws would be insufficient. I need to do some real throws and video tape them.

Believe you meant ... If you stand with your arm internally rotated and horizontal to the ground like Wellphyte recommends, and then extend your thorax it seems pretty natural to start externally rotating your arm.

Yes ... if you TE from this position, then the external rotation of the rear arm can be an automatic for many. Try it ... get the position you described, then externally rotate the lead thigh and TE at approximately the same time, and ER of the throwing arm will likely occur almost naturally.

 

[Mr T]

Believe you meant ... If you stand with your arm internally rotated and horizontal to the ground like Wellphyte recommends, and then extend your thorax it seems pretty natural to start externally rotating your arm.

Yes ... if you TE from this position, then the external rotation of the rear arm can be an automatic for many. Try it ... get the position you described, then externally rotate the lead thigh and TE at approximately the same time, and ER of the throwing arm will likely occur almost naturally.

Yes thanks for that important correction, that is what I meant and I agree with the automatic feeling.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes thanks for that important correction, that is what I meant and I agree with the automatic feeling.

I'll have to review the Hodge video at some point. He just seems to draw out what should only take ten minutes into 90+ minutes. Very repetitive. At one point I believe he even suggests that you don't even have to think about ER ... that it is natural if you simply trigger with the front thigh rollover. In fact, in one of his slow-motion throwing demos he actually does it right, and the angle in his throwing arm becomes less than that of a 90-degree "L" that he kept advocating.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here are six sequential frames from Maddux's sequence.


In the second frame his front leg begins to open (external rotation) and his throwing arm also begins to externally rotate (arm beginning to move ball up to 'L" position). The third frame shows continued external rotation of the front thigh and throwing arm. The fourth frame shows more external rotation of front thigh and throwing arm. Fifth frame shows beginning of forward turn of shoulders as evidenced by the glove hand arm being suddenly pulled down and in. Sixth frame shows shoulders turning forward as throwing arm lays back (additional external rotation).

IMO the beginning of external rotation in Maddux's throwing arm seen in frame two, is closely timed with the roll over of his front thigh. I don't see how TE triggers his throwing arm into ER in frame two. Maybe Mr T. or FFS can explain it.

IMO the difference in the throwing arm position of Tewk's girl compared to Maddux at the point where the front thigh rolls over is very important. Both of these images are taken at the point where each player's front thigh begins to roll over.


I started hearing girls complain about sore shoulders and elbows starting in 12U. I had girls on each of my 14U travel teams for the past two years complain about sore arms. All the girls that complained about sore arms externally rotated their throwing arm up to the "L" position prior to their front thigh rolling over. One of the girls stayed down in 14U ('97 birthday) and I just heard she is in physical therapy right now for a sore shoulder. My wife is currently treating a 16U girl from one of the better travel teams in the area, for the same issue.

Normally I would bow out of a thread like this by now rather to endlessly go back and forth. However I consider this topic to be a safety issue and I hate to see players needlessly getting injured. I'm hearing way to much of it in my area, and my wife being a physical therapist sees it all the time with both HS age boys and girls.

I posted the Hodge videos on 4shared.com. If I can figure out how to share them with the board without giving out my login name and password, I will. That way people can make up their own minds about what he teaches. If anyone is familar with how the 4shared site works, let me know.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wellphyt ...

Your attachments didn't display. Maybe you could try again. Better yet ... do you have the entire GIF or video?

You mentioned something about going "back and forth" ... what do you feel you are going back and forth about? You already conceded that the "L" was not the objective ... was there something else?

You keep re-iterating a sequence of triggering with external rotation of the lead thigh, followed by external rotation of the throwing arm. Is someone arguing that point? Who?

TE is important ... and it is not an automatic for many. It may indeed be an automatic for someone that already knows how to throw properly, but some of us are interested in working with people that wish to learn how to throw properly. Hodge had a focus on the "L" ... something you've already conceded shouldn't be the objective. Hodge simply missed the importance of TE. Not a big deal really ... he simply missed that in his obsession over an "L". You to can miss it also if you wish ... but why do that? Simply run under-the-hood tests with and without TE, feel the stretch, and determine if it is something worthwhile ... see if you can then view it in videos of the best and seek confirmation.

As for the Hodge's videos ... Jeff didn't want his material openly distributed. He was fine having it shared within small groups, but he did not want the material widely distributed. Maybe he's changed his opinion on that ... if so, I'd like to know that.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt ...

Your attachments didn't display. Maybe you could try again. Better yet ... do you have the entire GIF or video?

You mentioned something about going "back and forth" ... what do you feel you are going back and forth about? You already conceded that the "L" was not the objective ... was there something else?

You keep re-iterating a sequence of triggering with external rotation of the lead thigh, followed by external rotation of the throwing arm. Is someone arguing that point? Who?

TE is important ... and it is not an automatic for many. It may indeed be an automatic for someone that already knows how to throw properly, but some of us are interested in working with people that wish to learn how to throw properly. Hodge had a focus on the "L" ... something you've already conceded shouldn't be the objective. Hodge simply missed the importance of TE. Not a big deal really ... he simply missed that in his obsession over an "L". You to can miss it also if you wish ... but why do that? Simply run under-the-hood tests with and without TE, feel the stretch, and determine if it is something worthwhile ... see if you can then view it in videos of the best and seek confirmation.

As for the Hodge's videos ... Jeff didn't want his material openly distributed. He was fine having it shared within small groups, but he did not want the material widely distributed. Maybe he's changed his opinion on that ... if so, I'd like to know that.

Hodge was not obsessed or focused with the "L". He does mention it in his teachings along with a bunch of other stuff.

I'm the one who is obsessed with coaches who teach kids to break their hands and go straight to the "L", because I know it causes shoulder injury. My DD had a sore arm when she did that, along with my centerfielder, left fielder, 1st baseman and 3rd baseman from my 14u Travel team last year. The first base girl is on another team this year and is in physical therapy for a sore shoulder from throwing overhand. The third base girl's arm still hurts off and on.

Hodge was obsessed with keeping the throwing arm internally rotated (palms down) until the front thigh rolls over. It is IMO the biggest point of emphasis in what he teaches. The reason I mention the "L" so much is because that's what I see being taught by other coaches most frequently. It's also what is commonly shown on youtube. It's what Ashely Holcombe teaches in her youtube video, even though her actual throw down to second base later in her video shows her doing what Hodge teaches.

Yes I think someone is arguing the point about the front thigh roll over being a trigger. Mr T. says he is absolutely convinced that TE is the trigger for the ER of the arm. I'm not sure where you stand on the subject. It sounds like you agree with him.

Can you post a still shot of where TE takes place in the throwing motion? Or at least clarify if it takes place after the shoulders begin to turn forward or before.

I certainly don't want to get sued by Jeff Hodge. Jeff if you're out there, is it ok if I provide a link for the members here to the clinic you did on the overhand throw, if I accompany it with a disclaimer?

 

[Greenmonsters]

Wellphyt ...

Your attachments didn't display. Maybe you could try again. Better yet ... do you have the entire GIF or video?

You mentioned something about going "back and forth" ... what do you feel you are going back and forth about? You already conceded that the "L" was not the objective ... was there something else?

You keep re-iterating a sequence of triggering with external rotation of the lead thigh, followed by external rotation of the throwing arm. Is someone arguing that point? Who?

TE is important ... and it is not an automatic for many. It may indeed be an automatic for someone that already knows how to throw properly, but some of us are interested in working with people that wish to learn how to throw properly. Hodge had a focus on the "L" ... something you've already conceded shouldn't be the objective. Hodge simply missed the importance of TE. Not a big deal really ... he simply missed that in his obsession over an "L". You to can miss it also if you wish ... but why do that? Simply run under-the-hood tests with and without TE, feel the stretch, and determine if it is something worthwhile ... see if you can then view it in videos of the best and seek confirmation.

As for the Hodge's videos ... Jeff didn't want his material openly distributed. He was fine having it shared within small groups, but he did not want the material widely distributed. Maybe he's changed his opinion on that ... if so, I'd like to know that.

FFS and Wellphyt - IMO, sore arms stemming from poor mechanics are a FP epidemic. Most girls are suprised when they find out that throwing isn't supposed to lead to discomfort! This is a great opportunity to make and post a video and talk us through what you're trying to explain in words - the stills and video clips of others are insufficient to identify the nuances and subtleties. I think I follow what you're saying, but if you put it in a video and pin point what and when you're initiating/feeling rollover and TE, you can bring enlightenment to the DFP board and the FP world! Nothing fancy or involving players/students, just do it yourself Tewks style - wear fake glasses and a mustache if you're self conscious.

 

[Mr T]

Hodge was not obsessed or focused with the "L". He does mention it in his teachings along with a bunch of other stuff.

I'm the one who is obsessed with coaches who teach kids to break their hands and go straight to the "L", because I know it causes shoulder injury. My DD had a sore arm when she did that, along with my centerfielder, left fielder, 1st baseman and 3rd baseman from my 14u Travel team last year. The first base girl is on another team this year and is in physical therapy for a sore shoulder from throwing overhand. The third base girl's arm still hurts off and on.

Hodge was obsessed with keeping the throwing arm internally rotated (palms down) until the front thigh rolls over. It is IMO the biggest point of emphasis in what he teaches. The reason I mention the "L" so much is because that's what I see being taught by other coaches most frequently. It's also what is commonly shown on youtube. It's what Ashely Holcombe teaches in her youtube video, even though her actual throw down to second base later in her video shows her doing what Hodge teaches.

Yes I think someone is arguing the point about the front thigh roll over being a trigger. Mr T. says he is absolutely convinced that TE is the trigger for the ER of the arm. I'm not sure where you stand on the subject. It sounds like you agree with him.

Can you post a still shot of where TE takes place in the throwing motion? Or at least clarify if it takes place after the shoulders begin to turn forward or before.

I certainly don't want to get sued by Jeff Hodge. Jeff if you're out there, is it ok if I provide a link for the members here to the clinic you did on the overhand throw, if I accompany it with a disclaimer?

This is all new stuff to me. I'm not claiming anything definitive. Just trying to learn and report back on the things FFS has suggested that I try.

I think as far as a trigger...well, just stand with your arm internally rotated, and just step and roll your thigh. Did you externally rotate your arm? Well, if you did, a couple things to think about. Did you do it because you know how to throw, and have done it a million times? Did you keep your head back such that when you rolled your thigh there was a good amount of arch in your back?

OK, do the exact same thing except imagine now you are going to punch someone or something right at the level of your hand, right out in front of you.

Still have the urge to externally rotate your arm? I didn't. At all.

Now repeat the experiment, standing, don't even move your leg and simply arch your back. Obviously you rotate your arm just by virtue of it being attached to your torso. And a body in motion tends to stay in motion. It's just that simple for me.

But back to sequence, timing, and triggers... I'm not really hung up on what the 'trigger' is per se. It happens simultaneously because rolling the thigh and keeping the upper torso, neck, and head back are all one motion that create the stretch, load, extension in the torso, whatever you want to call it.

But again, I am learning and experimenting with this in a few days time. Could I be getting lost in the smoke that I'm blowing, sure.