Throwing the rise ball

[Dave D]

Hal,
I am intrigued by this clip, because I think it illustrates some important aspects of talking about delivery. I would really like to see it in a format that allows frame by frame advance, as the YouTube clip won't stop where I want it to so I can see exactly what's happening. Anybody who can help with this?

1. When I first looked at this clip, I thought I was seeing some significant flaws, mostly that it looked like this girl was leaning forward at release. After watching it a few times and stopping where I could, I realized that she wasn't leaning so much forward toward the batter as tilting at the waist (could I call that "third base tilt?") to create arm space at her hip. I've seen this more and more with some very effective pitchers as it seems to eliminate the brushing or bumping the hip or leg problem, especially with the rise.
2. I would argue that this pitcher DOES follow through, in fact, pretty effectively, just on a low plane that extends toward the batter. I would think this would be a great riseball follow through if the pitcher can get backspin with it because it is unusual, and more in line with a screw or something like it. It looks very loose and relaxed, and that's what I think is most important.
3. I was originally concerned about the powerline, but your explanation and another look cleared a lot of that up for me. Her "third base tilt" also creates the impression that she is not coming straight at the plate, but watching the clip repeatedly suggests that she is on a pretty good line.
4. Mostly, I would really like to see a couple of stills or super slow motion at her release point. All I can get is her fingers rotated inward after release. I don't see where or how she's imparting rise (back) spin on the ball. I'm not doubting that she does, I just want to see how she does it. I have the same problem with the Finch riseball clip. I just don't see how this release that ends up with fingers pointed inside creates rise spin. I'm especially interested because it seems to be my DDs inclination when she works on her rise. I see that hand in that position after release, and I KNOW that she isn't consistently getting backspin. I've tried to use the Hillhouse rise clips as a guide for this release point, but it's a long journey from showing that to DD and seeing it in the gym. BTW, if memory serves, Hillhouse seems to follow through in a forward direction when he throws the rise, too.

Thanks for posting the clip. I think this looks like a really tough pitcher, especially for a 10 y.o.

 

[Dusty]

I'm not gonna touch the talk about the girl's mechanics but I'm curious about the grip for the bent finger rise ball. Does she tuck the index (or other) finger in under the seam like a knuckle ball grip?

The reason I ask is because my 12 yo dd has been learning the rise for several months now and at first she experimented with a variety of grips including one where she tucked a finger in (I think the index although I don't remember for sure) and she didn't have as much success with that grip as she did the one where you have the index and middle finger close together under the seam. I didn't think the tucked in finger approach would work well for a girl who didn't have very long and strong fingers so if this is the grip this 10yo is using does she have long fingers and is she likely to continue using this grip when she ages up and starts pitching with a 12" ball instead of an 11" one?

 

[Ravenstown]

Hal, lets clarify. The mat was definitely an issue with it moving. I think this girl does throw hard for 10 years old and she may be an exceptional, hard working kid. Nobody ever questioned that. I totally applaud her work ethic and dedication to the sport. You asked for feedback on how she can improve by providing a 2 pitch, 16 second clip and that is what I was trying to provide. I wasn't being critical of her. I was just trying to assist with what I see as things she can work on to improve. I thought that was the function of this forum, so that others can try to assist. As for her feet, I was speaking about her right knee not her left. Let me explain. Since she is a right handed pitcher, she strides with her left foot. Once that left foot hits the ground and she pushes back off the earth with it to create resistance, her right knee should come straight down the power line with shoe laces up, toe dragging the ground, knee towards the catchers mitt. Her knees should almost touch to have correct mechanical form at finish. In this clip, she is totally closed with feet shoulder width apart at finish. The research that I have seen, whether a Bill Hillhouse video or other elite pitchers, is that the player's push off foot (her right) follows the stride leg to the target once the stride foot hits the ground. I will continue to teach my girls this method as it is proven to work. As far as having her throw more then 2 pitches is concerned, I have never seen a 10 year old with a riseball. I have seen hundreds that state they have riseballs, curveballs, and 15 other pitches. However, statistics prove this not to be the case. I would think she has to be able to throw mid 50's to get the type of movement and spin to make the ball rise and have near flawless mechanics as well. Good luck!

 

[3'sDad]

Hal: DD pitches and has been working with a PC since she began 3 years ago. The question I have for you regarding this student is on the pre-release motion. I watched the video clip several times.

Upon presentation of the ball and taking the ball from her glove to begin the motion, your student bends her elbow and proceeds thru her motion ver quickly, not generating a complete arm circle. While it does not appear she is losing velocity, would the full arm circle be benefical in the future the generate additional velocity or moveemnt as she learns other pitches or will this motion be beneficial for the movement pitches later?

DD, who is 12, currently has a FB, CU, drop curve and is just learning the screwball (which may not be ready this year). Her PC only moves on with new pitches once command is in place of the existing arsenal.

Thanks.