The bow

[westcoastfundamentals]

If this is Bill Hillhouse I have a lot of respect for you so I won't comment on your suggestion to me since we have friends in common. I am the owner and lead instructor and learned from Ron Lefebvre & some from Don Sarno while growing up in SoCal. I am in the process of changing the pitchers motion and was telling her she had NO drag line so since you were not there please keep comments on a more general basis please.

Rob

 

[pitchmom]

Since I am the one that started this thread, let me apologize. I had absolutely no intentions of starting something. I was just curious as to what other thought of the bow.

I have nothing but respect for Rob and West Coast.

Sorry again

 

[Coachhab]

I think your daughter has too much forward lean in her motion that is wasted energy. You have to have forward lean in order to drive off of the rubber. The pivot food should press down on the rubber inorder to explode or drive off of the rubber. If she is bowing just to imitate someone without pressing down on the rubber with her pivot foot and driving off the rubber then the bow is of no value. If she is pressing down on the rubber, she could accomplish the same thing with her shoulders forward but upright and not have her back nearly parallel with the ground. The motion would be much more efficient.

 

[CoachFP]

Westcoast, don't be so defensive. When someone posts a video on a message board people are asked to opine. I know you are protecting your business interests but when someone sees a mistake they are going to point it out. It is the nature of the forum. I agree with Hillhouse and quite frankly there are too many places where kids are doing something grossly wrong and the instructor is oblivious to it. I think that was the case with that girl in the background.

 

[Joe]

The girl in the video has solid mechanics and some serious pop on the ball. I love the fact that she has an agressive drag and pitches through her hips. The only issue ( that Bill noted) is that it seems on the first few pitches ( fastballs? ) she is short arming her finish. The other pitches she finishes with a relaxed follow through, drops or drop curves? I'm sure her change up is thrown with a relaxed follow through.

The bending issue has been addressed.

In correcting the crow hop the best results I've expierienced are by quicking the drag foot while remaining in contact with the ground. This speeds up the arm circle correcting the hitch or pause. It ties together, if the drag is lazy the arm is slower. The small piece of towel and other items I use give instant feedback to the pitcher. I have use items like this before well respected pitchers have suggested this in books, Cheri Kemp for example. If someone has other solutions they which to share I'm sure everyone on the fourm would benefit.
Rob, your facility is first class, the fact that you mimic actual field conditons is great. I don't know you but I would like to hear your any of your advise on pitching. Thanks. Joe

 

[chinamigarden]

Since I am the one that started this thread, let me apologize. I had absolutely no intentions of starting something. I was just curious as to what other thought of the bow.

I have nothing but respect for Rob and West Coast.

Sorry again

You don't have to apologize. These things happen on all sorts of internet forums. Someone starts a thread and it goes in a different direction then they intended. Pick out from the answers that are directed at your question and move on.

I am not a fan of the bow, someone posted in a different thread about a study about the stress put on the back caused by straightening back up and pushing forward at the same time. And its not good for the body. I don't think the bow really helps in her accuracy, but once she starts to believe it helps. Then it does. She needs to get rid of it, and work it out.

 

[Hillhouse]

Pitchmom, you don't have to apologize. And the other poster is right, threads have a way of digressing into other topics.

Rob, it's entirely possible that you are indeed trying to work on that leap/crowhop with that girl. I'd have absolutely know way of knowing that. All I can go by is what I saw and heard in that clip. In the 47 second mark, after the girl throws a pitch, you tell her her "drag" went that way. Her drag went that way after a pretty substantial crowhop that was not mentioned. Yes, I know... it's just a small hop. But such a noticeable hop when going THAT slow is going to manifest into a HUGE one going full speed. So all I'm going by is what I heard and saw. She goes on to do it a few more times and I don't think it's addressed. So, if you are indeed working on it, then great. Accept my most humble apology.

Pitchmom, the lean does a lot of things and others have pointed them out. It's a lot of energy wasted, it's got potential back pain associated with it, etc. But just think of how your body is made to work for a second. Most everyone agrees that power in pitching comes from the waist down. With that said, she's got to try to get the maximum push from her legs, similar to how a sprinter uses the starter blocks to push off in a race. Have you ever seen a sprinter take off with bending the waist and straightening the front leg out? Probably not. The general rule of thumb that I use is to make sure the chin does not surpass the knee in the lean forward. This means they should be bending both knee and waist together, in a nice athletic position. The other thing that I think is not necessarily working for her is how her drag foot goes so far sideways. Behind her like a bowler almost. From my perspective, if I'm trying to go forward and that's the direction where i am trying to throw the ball, I want every bit of my energy going in that direction! If my body starts going in different directions, then my power is being diverted to different directions.

Bill

 

[Jojo]

pitchmom, one thing that may help in dealing with a "teenager" and change. One of my students had a substantial bow, I fussed with her about it and she did not work very much on adjusting it.
One day I took a quick a video of her using my flip camera. Then gave her a picture of herself when she was completely bent over. She had no idea she was really dipping that far over. Because it happens so quickly they don't realize how far over they are bending.
Just seeing her self in that position and me explaining how many times in a game/day/weekend she was doing that was enough to convince her to work on being more upright.

 

[westcoastfundamentals]

For everyone interested. West Coast Fundamentals teaches pushing straight off the rubber (to insure a straight arm circle & glove swing), getting open by the 1st Qtr Arm Circle mark (as illustrated in the Jennie Finch Sports Science video) which means by 1st Qtr her Rt foot, Rt Hip & Rt shoulder are open and facing towards 3rd Base for a RH pitcher that enables the arm to spin freely as the rotater cuff is out of the way and hips are open so that the arm circle can continue it's path on the power line. We want to achieve proper spine angles as illustrated by RVP Instructional video and achieve reverse posture at Circle Peak. We want to throw in an open position and NOT close the hip prior to the throwing arm going by (as also illustrated by the Sports Science video of Jennie Finch). We will stay open on certain pitches and we will also close on certain pitches but only after the throwing arm passes the hip first. I am the instructor in the background and that student is new to me and she turns her foot prior to pushing off the pitchers plate. We are working on a straight toe at push off and she just turned 11 and will be a very good pitcher. Thank you all for your comments and encouragement. Crow hops and Replants can be difficult to fix especially within a 2 minute video clip.

Bill - No problem. I'm sure I will run into someday maybe at a Bandits game as I might be helping Darrick a little. I look forward to meeting you.

 

[Ken Krause]

Westcoast, nice explanation. And it does look like a cool facility. Wish I had something like that to work in!

It's interesting with crow hops. I think sometimes younger kids develop them because they may not have full control of their bodies yet. I have one girl (also 11 YO) who can do fine if she's not being asked to drive out. When I have her drive harder, though, she starts bouncing her back foot like a jet liner on a rough landing. She just hasn't developed the coordination, which works its way out from the core to the extremities. But we're working on it, along with some other stuff.

Biggest issue was she was taught to face the ball toward second base, close the hips, curl the arm and all that other stuff so prevalent here in the Midwest. So lots to work on, and you can't fix it all at once. It can be like organizing a box of puppies until they really figure out what's going on for themselves.