What he is telling this girl is to roll her shoulder over. Then for a rise ball it is a different body mechanic. As Bill will tell you all pitches should be thrown with the same mechanics. Rolling the shoulder over does not preclude someone from letting the ball go off the fingers in a peel fashion. I don't think you have thought through what you mean by "over the top" drop.
teaching the drop
- Thread starter JC heir
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
What he is telling this girl is to roll her shoulder over. Then for a rise ball it is a different body mechanic. As Bill will tell you all pitches should be thrown with the same mechanics. Rolling the shoulder over does not preclude someone from letting the ball go off the fingers in a peel fashion. I don't think you have thought through what you mean by "over the top" drop.
So, the girl in the Parker video is *not* throwing an over-the-top drop? I believe you are mistaken, my friend.
IMHO, the over-the-top is a better drop. I will readily admit that once a girl learns the OTTD, it is difficult for her to learn to throw a rise. IMHO, it is better to have one great pitch than two mediocre ones--so I personally don't see that as an issue.
If you guys can teach a girl to throw a 60+ mph drop with a peel, then God bless you. Other than Osterman, I personally haven't seen someone get the big break on a peel, but I haven't seen every pitcher out there.
IMHO, the over-the-top is a better drop. I will readily admit that once a girl learns the OTTD, it is difficult for her to learn to throw a rise. IMHO, it is better to have one great pitch than two mediocre ones--so I personally don't see that as an issue.
If you guys can teach a girl to throw a 60+ mph drop with a peel, then God bless you. Other than Osterman, I personally haven't seen someone get the big break on a peel, but I haven't seen every pitcher out there.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,390
- 113
I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this but...
Sluggers, you and I can disagree, which is fine. But I still think the reason most people have the same thoughts as you about the "OTTD" being so much more effective is because of the way the peel seems to be commonly taught. So much extra stuff is put into it which PREVENTS it from having speed and sharp movement. Yet when you watch Osterman, she throws hers the same way as the top male pitchers do. Yes I realize Osterman is somewhat of a freak of nature to a degree. But I don't think it's a coincidence that her mechancs and mine, which I've put on Right View Pro, are virtually identical at the key points in the motion. She simply uses her body differently than most other female pitcher. And it's beyond me why more people don't try to pitch like her.
While I'm at it, I'll disagree with Mark also! ha ha. But again, I'm basing my side of the argument on the way you've probably seen the peel drop taught (pulling up and back, etc.). But, this OTTD is not only visable to a trained hitter who's taught to read body positions but I have no idea how you can think the speeds would be the same since virtually everything necessary for speed in a pitch is countered in doing this turn over drop. The push of the rubber is almost non-existent and the snap/whip of the elbow is simply not there. Does it move? Sure. But at the expense of telegraphing it to the hitter and the potential damage of the unnatural movements are very real. If you watch that Ernie clip of the girl trying to throw in the bucket (which I'm still trying to figure out) , you can see a very very very exaggerated short stride. I'm sorry but I just believe more and more hitters today are being trained to read such things (or they should be) and that will telegraph it.
I think another part that gets confusing for others who throw a peel is the wrist roll at the end. After my ball is released, my wrist has a tendency to roll over. it's not something I do on purpose or conscientiously. The same can be said for quarterbacks who's wrists turn after they throw a ball and end up in a weird position.
Bill
Sluggers, you and I can disagree, which is fine. But I still think the reason most people have the same thoughts as you about the "OTTD" being so much more effective is because of the way the peel seems to be commonly taught. So much extra stuff is put into it which PREVENTS it from having speed and sharp movement. Yet when you watch Osterman, she throws hers the same way as the top male pitchers do. Yes I realize Osterman is somewhat of a freak of nature to a degree. But I don't think it's a coincidence that her mechancs and mine, which I've put on Right View Pro, are virtually identical at the key points in the motion. She simply uses her body differently than most other female pitcher. And it's beyond me why more people don't try to pitch like her.
While I'm at it, I'll disagree with Mark also! ha ha. But again, I'm basing my side of the argument on the way you've probably seen the peel drop taught (pulling up and back, etc.). But, this OTTD is not only visable to a trained hitter who's taught to read body positions but I have no idea how you can think the speeds would be the same since virtually everything necessary for speed in a pitch is countered in doing this turn over drop. The push of the rubber is almost non-existent and the snap/whip of the elbow is simply not there. Does it move? Sure. But at the expense of telegraphing it to the hitter and the potential damage of the unnatural movements are very real. If you watch that Ernie clip of the girl trying to throw in the bucket (which I'm still trying to figure out) , you can see a very very very exaggerated short stride. I'm sorry but I just believe more and more hitters today are being trained to read such things (or they should be) and that will telegraph it.
I think another part that gets confusing for others who throw a peel is the wrist roll at the end. After my ball is released, my wrist has a tendency to roll over. it's not something I do on purpose or conscientiously. The same can be said for quarterbacks who's wrists turn after they throw a ball and end up in a weird position.
Bill
I just watched the 23U Women's national and there was a girl there from St. Joseph's University (who is 18yo) that threw a true peel drop. She beat a loaded team with players from Michigan and Florida and other top schools with that pitch. She looks nothing like Cat Osterman physically. Cat Osterman was taught by a male pitcher whom I know fairly well. There is no mystery to the pitch. Trying to roll your shoulder over adds new mechanics to the pitching motion that are unnecessary.
Slugger,
I understand your experience is you haven't seen good female peels outside of Cat. I'm saying I have. My experience is, both can be very effective. As to the rise being difficult to mix with the roll drop, Cat's first instructor teaches it that way to this day and his kids, at least the ones with good flexibility, throw both well. As to the speed of the drop, I'd suggest that's dependent on the athlete. IME, a pitcher should lose only about a mph to get great movement. More at first but less as they get better at it.
Bill,
Speaking from much less experience and ability than you, I have seen one thing you have not which is the efficacy of adding a peel and pull combined with a late leg push to good leg drive and a loose whippy delivery be effective. I refer you to Howard Hashida for more. (I think that's what you were disagreeing with me about?)
As to the roll drop being combined with a low level leg push, I don't know why those two have to go together. It's true that Tim Timmons, Cat's first instructor, teaches it that way but it's not a given that an aggressive leap and drag can't be combined with a roll/turnover drop. I prefer the peel but I'm not religious about it. I take your point about it telegraphing the pitch but Fernandez solved that by throwing a similar look change. Shoot, I've seen plenty of hitters you could tell them it was coming and it wouldn't help.
CoachFP,
I think too many emphasize the shoulder too much on this pitch. It should be more forearm and wrist than many use imo. Dang it, there I go defending the turn over/roll drop again when I like the peel.
I understand your experience is you haven't seen good female peels outside of Cat. I'm saying I have. My experience is, both can be very effective. As to the rise being difficult to mix with the roll drop, Cat's first instructor teaches it that way to this day and his kids, at least the ones with good flexibility, throw both well. As to the speed of the drop, I'd suggest that's dependent on the athlete. IME, a pitcher should lose only about a mph to get great movement. More at first but less as they get better at it.
Bill,
Speaking from much less experience and ability than you, I have seen one thing you have not which is the efficacy of adding a peel and pull combined with a late leg push to good leg drive and a loose whippy delivery be effective. I refer you to Howard Hashida for more. (I think that's what you were disagreeing with me about?)
As to the roll drop being combined with a low level leg push, I don't know why those two have to go together. It's true that Tim Timmons, Cat's first instructor, teaches it that way but it's not a given that an aggressive leap and drag can't be combined with a roll/turnover drop. I prefer the peel but I'm not religious about it. I take your point about it telegraphing the pitch but Fernandez solved that by throwing a similar look change. Shoot, I've seen plenty of hitters you could tell them it was coming and it wouldn't help.
CoachFP,
I think too many emphasize the shoulder too much on this pitch. It should be more forearm and wrist than many use imo. Dang it, there I go defending the turn over/roll drop again when I like the peel.
geez...I thought you guys would be off at national tournaments in August, so I could post whatever I wanted without criticism.
You've convinced me that it is possible throw a peel drop effectively. I'll keep looking for someone that throws a good one. I'm really interested in how to throw the peel drop more effectively--so much so that I may have to break the piggy bank and get Hillhouse's video.
The bucket drill in Ernie's video isn't the one I use. I put an obstacle (like a trash can) between the pitcher and home plate, and at home plate I lay down a bucket on its side with the mouth facing the pitcher. The idea is for the ball to go over the first obstacle and still into the bucket. The kids enjoy it. It is something different and fun.
You've convinced me that it is possible throw a peel drop effectively. I'll keep looking for someone that throws a good one. I'm really interested in how to throw the peel drop more effectively--so much so that I may have to break the piggy bank and get Hillhouse's video.
The bucket drill in Ernie's video isn't the one I use. I put an obstacle (like a trash can) between the pitcher and home plate, and at home plate I lay down a bucket on its side with the mouth facing the pitcher. The idea is for the ball to go over the first obstacle and still into the bucket. The kids enjoy it. It is something different and fun.
I think that comes and goes based on my observations. It's whatever's popular today I think. I like movement pitches that move away from the swing plane. Which swing plane should be more level to the ground on high pitches and more angled down toward the plate on low pitches. All from the pitcher's point of view. And I like change ups with a little late movement. If that movement is toward or away from the hitter's eye, even better.
Bill is the teacher and I'm sure he can give you more practical help than me. The short answer is more spin relative to the speed. How is of course the trick. A loose whippy arm as Bill mentioned is a big key. I have seen a well timed late peel of the fingers timed with a pull up and back with the arm and shoulder timed with a late extra push up and back from the plant leg add more break. Bill disagrees and no doubt he has produced many great pitchers which I have not. I focus mostly on hitting. For information from the coach I have seen get results from what I describe you could try emailing hmhashida@yahoo.com
Just don't use this stuff when pitching to any hitters I work with.
Just don't use this stuff when pitching to any hitters I work with.
