My dd just turned 14 & at season end we want to teach her another pitch - besides fastball, change-up. any advise out there on the peel drop? Thanks in advance.
teaching the drop
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How good is she? Is she throwing over 55? If so, forget the peel. Your DD needs a really good breaking pitch. You can't get enough spin on the peel drop to get the big movement (12 to 18 inches) at high speed.
She has to either throw a drop or a rise. To pick the breaking pitch to learn to throw, really look at your DD. Is she lanky? Is she flexible? Is she a greyhound? Is she a fireplug? Does she have good upper body strength?
If she is tall, lanky and flexible, teach her the rise. If she has good upper body strength and is a "fireplug", then teach her the "over the top drop".
Of course, if she is Cat Osterman, teach her both.
She has to either throw a drop or a rise. To pick the breaking pitch to learn to throw, really look at your DD. Is she lanky? Is she flexible? Is she a greyhound? Is she a fireplug? Does she have good upper body strength?
If she is tall, lanky and flexible, teach her the rise. If she has good upper body strength and is a "fireplug", then teach her the "over the top drop".
Of course, if she is Cat Osterman, teach her both.
Not sure how you came up with the body formulas for teaching the drop vs the rise. Doesn't make any sense to me. What makes sense is the kid athletic enough to perform the task. Long fingers help and strong hands and fingers even more. If you are an "over the top drop" thrower, odds are your rise ball will suffer.
I can't believe that you are saying if someone throws over 55 they can't get the ball to move as much with the peel. Can you throw a peel drop? I know plenty of people that throw a peel drop and throw much harder than 55 and the ball moves very well. Cat Osterman throws a peel drop. End of discussion.
IME, a coach who knows how to teach it can get a peel to drop just as much as any other. If you would like to correspond with Howard Hashida about same, I'd be happy to put you in touch.
Coach FP: If the kid is throwing near 55 mph at 14 YOA, then there is a chance the DD can play in college. If she is going to pitch in college, she needs the big breaking pitch (not the 4" breaking pitch--the good stuff). So, the question comes down to how to get her the big breaking pitch.
The faster you throw a ball, the more spin you have to put on the ball to get it to move substantially over the 40 feet or so from the pitcher to the batter.
To throw an over-the-top drop, the pitcher uses the natural internal rotation of the forearm to impart spin on the ball. With a peel drop, the pitcher is using the wrist flexors. It is easy to teach the peel drop, but difficult to get the big drop. It is harder to teach the over-the-top, but easier to get the big drop.
The only pitcher I've seen with a great peel drop is Osterman. I've seen several pitchers with a great over-the-top drop.
Would a thinking person bet that his DD is a one-in-ten million superwoman like Osterman with a hand that make a softball look like a ping pong ball, or would a thinking person bet there DD is a merely a good, above average athlete? Quick, you've got $100,000 in scholarship money on the table.
If a kid has a rise-ball as a go to pitch, she should learn the peel and not the over-the-top. If a kid is looking for a great breaking pitch and she is suited to learning a drop, then she should learn the over-the-top.
The faster you throw a ball, the more spin you have to put on the ball to get it to move substantially over the 40 feet or so from the pitcher to the batter.
To throw an over-the-top drop, the pitcher uses the natural internal rotation of the forearm to impart spin on the ball. With a peel drop, the pitcher is using the wrist flexors. It is easy to teach the peel drop, but difficult to get the big drop. It is harder to teach the over-the-top, but easier to get the big drop.
The only pitcher I've seen with a great peel drop is Osterman. I've seen several pitchers with a great over-the-top drop.
Would a thinking person bet that his DD is a one-in-ten million superwoman like Osterman with a hand that make a softball look like a ping pong ball, or would a thinking person bet there DD is a merely a good, above average athlete? Quick, you've got $100,000 in scholarship money on the table.
If a kid has a rise-ball as a go to pitch, she should learn the peel and not the over-the-top. If a kid is looking for a great breaking pitch and she is suited to learning a drop, then she should learn the over-the-top.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I must say, I disagree with Sluggers here on this. I don't like the turn over drop, nor do I know of any of the top pitchers in the world (male or female) who use it. But I think the people who claim the peel drop doesn't work for them, in many cases, are being sold a bill of goods on this pitch which aren't accurate. I also don't agree that throwing the ball harder means they will get less movement... it depends HOW they get that extra speed that will determine the movement (or lack of).
My problem is the way most teach the "peel drop" with this ridiculous pull back and pull up motion at the end of the pitch... as if starting a lawn mower. Nothing is more counter productive and unnatural than this. How the heck did this get started? The turn over drop that Sluggers is describing usually requires a shorter stride, which alters the release point helping it go down. The same can be done for a real peel drop but it doesn't change the overall mechanics being used. It's merely changing the trajectory out of the hand. The same thing that helps with a riseball.. trajectory. My question is, if "fastball" mechanics are designed to make the pitcher throw their fastest, why do people constantly change those mechanics for pitches? Why would anyone change their mechanics to something other than what would give them optimal speed? Like the "turn over drop" the mere motion of it defies what most people do to throw the ball hard so there will be a speed drop off (Pardon the pun). Heck.. a lot of people throw their change ups in the same general manner as the turn over drop because the snap is not the same as it is for a "fastball". The reality is, if someone is throwing a "fastball" with 4 seams spinning tight and straight, then to turn that ball into a drop, you simple let it go sooner. You may have noticed that she has a "drop" in her fastball sometimes. All she did differently was let the ball go sooner, THAT'S IT!!!! The earlier release will change the trajectory out of the hand and the ball will fall off the table. I personally believe and know from experience that the more speed I have on the ball, the more my ball will rotate and more movement I'll get. But a lot of girls are not taught to use their elbow to whip, which helps the wrist to snap naturally, and the fingers to generate the spin. All 3 elements of the are are crucial and if used correctly, there is no way someone cannot get the movement from a peel drop. Obviously someone can try to "over throw" the ball which prohibits movement but most of the time by "over throwing" the ball the pitcher is simply letting go way too late and changing the trajectory out of the hand, which effects the movement. But these wrist flip drills that most girls are taught are a huge factor in why the peel drop is harder for them... because it elminates the snap of the elbow. People seem to think that pitching is "all in the wrist" and forget the other 2 important elements (fingers and elbow).
Bill
My problem is the way most teach the "peel drop" with this ridiculous pull back and pull up motion at the end of the pitch... as if starting a lawn mower. Nothing is more counter productive and unnatural than this. How the heck did this get started? The turn over drop that Sluggers is describing usually requires a shorter stride, which alters the release point helping it go down. The same can be done for a real peel drop but it doesn't change the overall mechanics being used. It's merely changing the trajectory out of the hand. The same thing that helps with a riseball.. trajectory. My question is, if "fastball" mechanics are designed to make the pitcher throw their fastest, why do people constantly change those mechanics for pitches? Why would anyone change their mechanics to something other than what would give them optimal speed? Like the "turn over drop" the mere motion of it defies what most people do to throw the ball hard so there will be a speed drop off (Pardon the pun). Heck.. a lot of people throw their change ups in the same general manner as the turn over drop because the snap is not the same as it is for a "fastball". The reality is, if someone is throwing a "fastball" with 4 seams spinning tight and straight, then to turn that ball into a drop, you simple let it go sooner. You may have noticed that she has a "drop" in her fastball sometimes. All she did differently was let the ball go sooner, THAT'S IT!!!! The earlier release will change the trajectory out of the hand and the ball will fall off the table. I personally believe and know from experience that the more speed I have on the ball, the more my ball will rotate and more movement I'll get. But a lot of girls are not taught to use their elbow to whip, which helps the wrist to snap naturally, and the fingers to generate the spin. All 3 elements of the are are crucial and if used correctly, there is no way someone cannot get the movement from a peel drop. Obviously someone can try to "over throw" the ball which prohibits movement but most of the time by "over throwing" the ball the pitcher is simply letting go way too late and changing the trajectory out of the hand, which effects the movement. But these wrist flip drills that most girls are taught are a huge factor in why the peel drop is harder for them... because it elminates the snap of the elbow. People seem to think that pitching is "all in the wrist" and forget the other 2 important elements (fingers and elbow).
Bill
I've seen nasty sharp breaks at their best speed minus one or two with both mechanics. Depends on when the roll/turnover happens. Bottom line is, both can be effective with work and good coaching ime. I agree the loose whippy arm is the big key. Same in baseball-a loose whippy arm makes for a lively hard to hit ball. I have seen things added to that increase break sharpness and magnitude for a fp drop. I emailed this link to Howard. Perhaps he will chime in which I'd prefer. Since Bill brought up the getting forward on the drop, I don't care for that either. I view it as a crutch for pitchers who can't make the ball break down to where they want it but rather want to push/guide it down there.
Well, FP, all I can say is my DD threw one and she lost maybe 1 MPH. (What "basic physics" is that?)
Here is a video from one of Ernie's girls throwing an over the top drop. Looks like it breaks sharply to me.
YouTube - bucket drill
(By the way, this drill is my only meaningful contribution to pitching.)
Here is a video from one of Ernie's girls throwing an over the top drop. Looks like it breaks sharply to me.
YouTube - bucket drill
(By the way, this drill is my only meaningful contribution to pitching.)
I have to agree with Slugger in that the "roll" drop can be thrown hard. Others would argue it's not really a "roll" drop since slow motion video would show the ball is gone before the roll but no matter. I would disagree with anyone though who thinks the peel can't break just as much and just as fast.
