First off the angle of release (down) is most important. That is why "pulling up" on the ball is not advisable because all you are trying to do there is just get spin. Spin is only half the equation. As Bill puts it, it is the snap of the elbow then wrist then fingers which are behind the ball which will then impart the spin and the speed of the ball. It is more of a push behind the ball in my opinion which generates the spin. Quite simple and natural to boot. Pulling up requires the body to do other things and disrupts the smooth flow of the pitch.
teaching the drop
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First off the angle of release (down) is most important. That is why "pulling up" on the ball is not advisable because all you are trying to do there is just get spin. Spin is only half the equation. As Bill puts it, it is the snap of the elbow then wrist then fingers which are behind the ball which will then impart the spin and the speed of the ball. It is more of a push behind the ball in my opinion which generates the spin. Quite simple and natural to boot. Pulling up requires the body to do other things and disrupts the smooth flow of the pitch.
If you are talking about the initial direction of the ball at release, this is obviously wrong in fact though it may feel that way. We are talking about a ball with spin that causes it to curve downward even more than gravity would normally cause (definitional). Given this, even a passing understanding of physics and ballistics tells you the initial trajectory must be slightly up. This is basic and I hope we don't have to go through this again.
Spin, speed and direction of ball flight is all the equation. The rest you discuss below is all about HOW you achieve spin, speed etc.
That would be the great majority of the story I agree.
Technically that's true but "push" is a word I wouldn't want in the student's mind.
I'm content to agree to disagree on that. You haven't seen such be effective. I'm saying I have-very late-right at release-AFTER all that good stuff Bill is recommending.
FJRGerry
Abby's Dad
I'm no expert but...
The peel drop I taught myself and my daughter I learned from Michele Smith's advanced pitches DVD. She teaches a shorter stride, throwing shoulder over front foot on release so the body has a slight forward lean and pulling up on the ball on the release to impart more spin. The combination of these does drop the ball as it nears the plate. I know my daughter likes throwing it as a strike out pitch because she loves fooling the batter and watching them swing a foot above the ball. I can't say she throws it perfectly at 13, but when it works it works well.
The peel drop I taught myself and my daughter I learned from Michele Smith's advanced pitches DVD. She teaches a shorter stride, throwing shoulder over front foot on release so the body has a slight forward lean and pulling up on the ball on the release to impart more spin. The combination of these does drop the ball as it nears the plate. I know my daughter likes throwing it as a strike out pitch because she loves fooling the batter and watching them swing a foot above the ball. I can't say she throws it perfectly at 13, but when it works it works well.
- Aug 21, 2008
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Bill,
Speaking from much less experience and ability than you, I have seen one thing you have not which is the efficacy of adding a peel and pull combined with a late leg push to good leg drive and a loose whippy delivery be effective. I refer you to Howard Hashida for more. (I think that's what you were disagreeing with me about?)
As to the roll drop being combined with a low level leg push, I don't know why those two have to go together. It's true that Tim Timmons, Cat's first instructor, teaches it that way but it's not a given that an aggressive leap and drag can't be combined with a roll/turnover drop. I prefer the peel but I'm not religious about it. I take your point about it telegraphing the pitch but Fernandez solved that by throwing a similar look change. Shoot, I've seen plenty of hitters you could tell them it was coming and it wouldn't help.
Mark.. I've been doing this every day of my life since I was 11... and believe me that's not much of an exaggeration. In that time, I've tried everything known to man. EVERYTHING. I didn't crawl out of the womb and put on a national team jersey. Most of what I did was through trial and error. I learned things from every person I could and worked with them. And this sounds HORRIBLE to say so I hope I'm able to articulate my point well here but: as I was learning things, I found that I could learn something from a C level pitcher that would not work at the B level. Then I'd learn from the B level pitcher and it wouldn't work against A level hitters. "A"level pitching does not get out Major level hitters. And as I did this progression, I found the Major level pitchers all do virtually the same things, and for a reason. So the thing to do was learn from the best and their reasons if I wanted to become one of the best. So to think i have not experimented with other forms of pitches, pitching etc. is just not accurate. I have.
I don't know why the turn over drop is taught with a low leg drive. But if you even look at that "bucket drill" clip in this thread, you will see the girl has NO leg drive at all. This is simply how it's taught. It makes no sense to not push off as hard as possible since that is where your speed comes from. Sorry, I don't think you have to lose movement when you have speed. They can go hand in hand.
Lisa Fernandez was a great pitcher in her era. No question about it. But would what she did work against today's top hitter, Bustos? I'm not so sure. We cannot compare generations in any sport. With what the hitters are being trained with today, especially by the former players at men's major level who are teaching the art of reading pitchers, I'm not so sure the success would've been the same. We'll just never know.
I don't know Tim Timmons or Howard Hashida. I don't know anything about either. But I do know that Cat gives credit to Bobby Smith for teaching her the movement pitches that have made her famous. She has said that getting with him was when she separated herself from the others. Bobby was a very success pitcher.
Bill
Let me offer a different way of looking at it. If a pitcher can make the ball break downwards to the knees or lower depending on her goal for that particular pitch, is it better that she started it with a higher initial trajectory or a lower initial trajectory? Figure speed as a constant for the sake of this question. Both pitchers throw say 60 for the sake of the discussion. Pitcher A starts the ball looking like it will be mid thigh high and crosses the plate at the knees. Pitcher B starts the ball looking like it will be waist high and crosses the plate at the knees. Which pitch you like better?
I didn't mean to say you hadn't. Sounds like Michelle teaches the pull up. To me, if you throw with an efficient whippy arm delivery and a 12-6 spin at your max speed, I'd call that a lively fastball with movement. I'd be looking to trade about a mph of that for a little more spin and call it a drop. This also goes along with what Ernie Parker advised me when I was seeking advice on my older daughter's pitching. If someone asked me if I was a better pitching coach or you, I'd point to you in a heartbeat. But these things I described above, I have seen.
I agree.
I agree to an extent. The loose whippy arm delivery supplies this in both baseball and fastpitch. An athlete can produce X energy with an efficient motion. Trading a little speed for a little spin is an option in both sports.
I wouldn't hold Lisa up as the perfect model and the turnover/roll drop is not my first option so I won't dive into the above paragraph.
Tim was Cat's first instructor and she moved the ball very well already. When she moved from Timmons' stepping style to the leap and drag the winter before her big splash at Boulder, Smith was a big factor from that point on no doubt. Bobby worked for Tim some as well though I don't know that he ever really bought into Tim's stepping style mechanic. To me, Gary Osterman was likely a huge factor for Cat as well. Smart guy. My daughter was changing from Tim's stepping style to leap and drag that winter as well and Gary and I had some conversations about it. Cat's conversion worked out much better than my daughter's.
Tim was Cat's first instructor and she moved the ball very well already. When she moved from Timmons' stepping style to the leap and drag the winter before her big splash at Boulder, Smith was a big factor from that point on no doubt. Bobby worked for Tim some as well though I don't know that he ever really bought into Tim's stepping style mechanic. To me, Gary Osterman was likely a huge factor for Cat as well. Smart guy. My daughter was changing from Tim's stepping style to leap and drag that winter as well and Gary and I had some conversations about it. Cat's conversion worked out much better than my daughter's.
One look at Gary's garage door and you will see where Cat was made.
Cat faired a little better than my daughter as well.
They have had girls come over and stand in the driveway just to look at the door Cat dented up and where she trained. Kind of cute and funny. Not a bad hero for them to look up to. Looking from outside it has always seemed to me that she has handled the notoriety, success and occasional criticism with grace. I'm sure I would not have done as well at that age.
