Take the out?

[vdubya]

Situaion: Runner on third,no outs, batter reaches first and continues to second for the uncontested freebie.

Some say to make a play on the runner only if 2 outs, to get out of the inning. Our 12u team is weighing making the play with zero outs and maybe even one. Short of teaching the" look back 3 and throw to F4 in the basepath for a tag and then play at the plate" play, what are your thoughts on trading one run for an out?

Our logic is that with zero outs, that run scoring is almost a statistical certainty. (Talking 11's playing 12u here). It seems like trading a run for an out in this situation would be a way to stay in the game and avoid the dreaded big inning (we play on a clock...65-75 minute games).

Compared to 2 RISP with zero outs, I really like having one out and bases empty and I'm optimistic we can generally get that run back. More info: Our pitchers do not dominate, but our hitters don't get shutout. Team is aggressive offensively. We have yet to see the 1-0 pitcher duels at this age, and final scores are often 5-2 (+/-).

We start playing soon and honestly the team has bigger fish to fry than to spend practice time on the double tag play...at least for now. Not trying to be lazy, but need the time for other fundamentals right now. We can work the DP later, but for now I'm thinking we need the outs, and we need to contest the free base. These kids CAN execute a pickle at >90%, so should they?

VW

 

[ctfastpitch]

Really depends on the game situation. How valuable is the run compared to the out? If it is late in the game and the score is close, then you should be protecting the run. If you are up a few close to the end of the game then outs are more valuable. Early in the game, it would depend on your confidence in your defense vs. offense. If you feel you are going to score on the opposing team, then get the out. If you feel it is going to be a low scoring game, then every run counts. Also, if the offense is in the bottom half of the batting order, they may be sending her because they don't have confidence in their weaker hitters to get the run home.

Keep in mind, that if she does stop at 1B, she is probably going to steal on the next pitch, so what would your strategy be on the steal (throw through or protect the run)? Similar decision process in both situations.

On the offensive side, if I had strong batters coming up I would probably not send the batter on to 2B and give up an out to get a run (I could always have her steal on the next pitch which is a much tougher out to execute).

 

[shockcoach]

That's what I do. We have just started working on the defense to continuation plays. I'm going go have them at least get the out at 2nd. I don't teach my kids to continue to 2nd base, but rather take it on the next pitch. Only because that's not something that they can use later in their softball careers. They will get thrown out and likely a double play later on.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

What about 4 goes to 2B. 6 goes between, 1 and 4. Then, the catcher throws to the SS? That, should freeze both runners at 12U.

 

[ctfastpitch]

What about 4 goes to 2B. 6 goes between, 1 and 4. Then, the catcher throws to the SS? That, should freeze both runners at 12U.

If you are going to do that, then why not throw it to F1 in the circle, rather than F6. Once F1 has the ball in the circle, then the 3B runner has to commit either to home or retreat to 3B. If she retreats to 3B, then you might have a chance to get the runner at 2B, and NOT have to give up the run.

In either case, I am not sure that I would want to freeze the runner. If you do, she will likely go on the next pitch anyway. Then you have pretty much the same decision to make, with a more difficult play to get the out. If there is a runner at 3B with no outs, I should have already decided whether I want to give up the run or not before the batter even comes to the plate. If the game situation says I should give up the run to get the out, and the offense is generous enough to have the runner continue to 2B, I'll take the easy out every time, rather than making her stop. Regardless, the most important thing is to get the ball back to the pitcher as quickly as possible after Ball 4. From there she can either make the throw for the easy out, or fake the throw to see if she can get the 3B runner to commit.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

If you are going to do that, then why not throw it to F1 in the circle, rather than F6. Once F1 has the ball in the circle, then the 3B runner has to commit either to home or retreat to 3B. If she retreats to 3B, then you might have a chance to get the runner at 2B, and NOT have to give up the run.

Because, I want the catcher to look like she is throwing to 2nd. The catcher makes a big old "round house" exaggerated throw to the SS, who is in a line about 10 feet from 2nd. The 2nd baseman, then can either tell her to let it go through, catch and hold, or shoot home.

Some people do use the pitcher for the same play. I just prefer the SS.

 

[WinThemAll]

If you are going to do that, then why not throw it to F1 in the circle, rather than F6. Once F1 has the ball in the circle, then the 3B runner has to commit either to home or retreat to 3B. If she retreats to 3B, then you might have a chance to get the runner at 2B, and NOT have to give up the run.

I believe, the LBR isn't in effect until pitcher has ball in circle and batter-runner reaches first base.

Depending on situation (if we need an out, two outs, etc.), we call a play that F2 throws the ball back to F1 (in circle), F1 waits until runner commits to 2B (3/4 of the way at least) and then fires the ball to F4 waiting to the side of 2B. F4 has to be ready to make the tag and fire it to F2.

I have also thought about having F2 throw the ball immediately down to F3 who is standing three or so steps to the side of 1B.

 

[SnocatzDad]

We return the ball to pitcher immediately to try to get LBR enforced on R1 on 3rd.
We have F3 stand behind 1b in fair territory to force runner to round sharply
F4 moves into position 10 feet from 1B

If Batter/Runner trys to continue to 2B pitcher throws immediately to F4 who attempts tag but is ready to throw home immediately if necessary. Gotten both outs before. Trying to get the out close to 1B makes the throw home shorter. THe key is getting LBR enforced on runner at 3rd so that they aren't leading off when you go for the out on the batter/runner.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

A little OT, but this reminds me of my boys HS coach that with 2 outs and a runner on 3rd, he would have the runner from 1st run about a 1/4th of the way to 2nd and fall down. Catchers could never resist throwing to the second baseman as the man on 3rd rushed home.

Coach used it all the way to the state title game, one time.

Opposing coaches always reacted with quite a fit, at their catcher. The opponents had to know it was coming, I would think. (Everyone in the stands knew it.)

 

[ctfastpitch]

I believe, the LBR isn't in effect until pitcher has ball in circle and batter-runner reaches first base.

Depending on situation (if we need an out, two outs, etc.), we call a play that F2 throws the ball back to F1 (in circle), F1 waits until runner commits to 2B (3/4 of the way at least) and then fires the ball to F4 waiting to the side of 2B. F4 has to be ready to make the tag and fire it to F2.

I have also thought about having F2 throw the ball immediately down to F3 who is standing three or so steps to the side of 1B.

Agree on the LBR. You need to wait for the b-r to reach 1B. Assuming you want to get the out, you should still have time to wait for the 3B runner to commit, and then throw to get the b-r going to 2B. With the b/r not having a good jump, you may have decent shot at the out at home.