Swing down

[FP26]

Thanks for good write up. It's not really to far off from where my views are. Question: when you said previously that the hands are directing to a location, when does that occur? Is it in conjunction with the body or is it at a later time?

That will depend on the hitter's timing and the location of the pitch. As the stretch is built, one of the muscles that becomes stretched is the serratus anterior. That muscle along with others will be involved in delivering the barrel to the ball via the "hands to the ball" cue. Again, I wouldn't take the cue literally... The hitter is connected (hands near shoulders in space) throughout the first 1/2 of the clip (roughly...). Then his hands move 'out from' his body to a location where the barrel can contact the ball.

This process is going to vary based on pitch location. In each of the Miggy clips below, his hands are moving 'out from' or away from his body in a direction towards the incoming ball.

Some view this as a two step process. First you do this and then you do that. I don't see it that way. I see it as one fluid movement that will have some variations based on timing and pitch location. Some will also say that direction is determined much earlier and that the rest of the system is essentially on auto-pilot. I'm not really a fan of that thought process either. In my opinion the answer lies between those two extremes.

 

[TDS]

W=W

We often say hip coil, but the coil involves the entire body. For example if we screw the back foot into the ground the coil is felt through the leg as well as the hips. There is coil above the hips as well.

This could work for a particular hitter.. This is the type of thinking that can prevent a balanced sequence of movements... Don't try to force actions of certain segments out of sequence.. Its why we see many kids lose there athleticism..

 

[Work=wins]

W=W

We often say hip coil, but the coil involves the entire body. For example if we screw the back foot into the ground the coil is felt through the leg as well as the hips. There is coil above the hips as well.

yeah. I understand that way of loading. I think it’s slow and long. It takes the whole body. I’m just trying to coil the middle through natural movements.

 

[julray]

This could work for a particular hitter.. This is the type of thinking that can prevent a balanced sequence of movements... Don't try to force actions of certain segments out of sequence.. Its why we see many kids lose there athleticism..

I don’t mind this cue for some hitters who are driving the rear leg forward. I mentioned before that I put a block behind my DDs rear foot to enhance driving the rear leg. Worse thing I ever done. She was losing ground force and was very unbalanced. Teaching a hitter to anchor the rear foot can prevent this from happening, when the hitter gets FYB the rear leg gets straightened anyway

 

[clemenslee1]

@FP26

Sorry for the delay. It's a beautiful day here in PA so I figured I would take advantage of the nice weather and cut my lawn...

First of all, before we discuss launching the barrel, I believe it is important to first discuss how we get there...

As Donaldson makes his forward move, I would like to point out two things. 1) Notice how the pelvic girdle turns. almost as if he is opening up towards the pitcher. 2) Also notice his rear arm going back, sort of towards where the dugout would be behind him. In my opinion all good hitters have a combination of these two moves to some degree. Some will have more of one. Some will have more of the other. Much of that will depend on the hitter's personal range of motion. In any event, the hitter is getting to "max stretch" at this point. There is a stretch starting in his hips, going through his core, and ultimately concluding in his back (scap area). Some people will focus more on what's referred to as the "SCIP axis", which is primarily a rear-legged type stretch, starting in the rear hip/upper leg and ending in the rear scap. Some will include the entire core and/or torso when they discuss this. I really don't have an issue with either adaptation, as I believe if you get into this type of pass through position prior to launch, what muscles are and are not involved doesn't seem that important to me. Ultimately this would be what I consider the launch position. Honestly, the clip may need another frame or so...

This popular clip of Manny is showing the same thing in my opinion. Lower half and upper half being stretched against each other. Pelvic girdle turning some. Scap activating...

The bold above I pretty much fully agree, only way we might differ is that I personally view these actions as something that should occur naturally. The pelvic girdle by what I feel wants to open on its own without any action by me when I stride. the upper I feel is stretching by resisting with the core against the opening pelvic girdle. Which creates the stretch because its trying to stay square to the plate.

At launch, the body works in unison to deliver the barrel to the ball.

The rear elbow drops while the barrel simultaneously begins to turn. If you want to say the hands are turning it, that's fine. If you want to say the scap is lowering the arm while the hands maintain the hinge angle, that's fine too. As with most other concepts, hinge angle has been beaten to death because of people's tendency to over exaggerate things. Anyway, as the rear elbow is dropping the front arm will typically maintain it's distance from the chest. This process essentially creates the arc that I am referring to.

JMO / YMMV

Right now I'm of the opinion the once one gets to the launch position (if one calls it a pass through position, thats fine with me), the Legs are stabalizing and the stretch core is fired against them. JMO the hips are not firing, the core by the BB is. As the elbow starts to slot and the hands swing down into the turning core the barrel is arced. This is not a 2 step process, this is happening simultaniously with one another,

All JMO, but we very close to the same view.

As you can see ladies and gentleman you can have a civil discussion on here! You just have to get a clear definition of the other persons terms first, before any assumptions.

 

[TDS]

I don’t mind this cue for some hitters who are driving the rear leg forward. I mentioned before that I put a block behind my DDs rear foot to enhance driving the rear leg. Worse thing I ever done. She was losing ground force and was very unbalanced. Teaching a hitter to anchor the rear foot can prevent this from happening, when the hitter gets FYB the rear leg gets straightened anyway

This is where pattern differences cause confusion. This pattern (cause/effect) doesn't go well with swinging "down to"

This is a good drill to learn how the core is utilized to swing down to against both hips extending..

 

[FP26]

@FP26

Sorry for the delay. It's a beautiful day here in PA so I figured I would take advantage of the nice weather and cut my lawn...

First of all, before we discuss launching the barrel, I believe it is important to first discuss how we get there...

As Donaldson makes his forward move, I would like to point out two things. 1) Notice how the pelvic girdle turns. almost as if he is opening up towards the pitcher. 2) Also notice his rear arm going back, sort of towards where the dugout would be behind him. In my opinion all good hitters have a combination of these two moves to some degree. Some will have more of one. Some will have more of the other. Much of that will depend on the hitter's personal range of motion. In any event, the hitter is getting to "max stretch" at this point. There is a stretch starting in his hips, going through his core, and ultimately concluding in his back (scap area). Some people will focus more on what's referred to as the "SCIP axis", which is primarily a rear-legged type stretch, starting in the rear hip/upper leg and ending in the rear scap. Some will include the entire core and/or torso when they discuss this. I really don't have an issue with either adaptation, as I believe if you get into this type of pass through position prior to launch, what muscles are and are not involved doesn't seem that important to me. Ultimately this would be what I consider the launch position. Honestly, the clip may need another frame or so...

The bold above I pretty much fully agree, only way we might differ is that I personally view these actions as something that should occur naturally. The pelvic girdle by what I feel wants to open on its own without any action by me when I stride. the upper I feel is stretching by resisting with the core against the opening pelvic girdle. Which creates the stretch because its trying to stay square to the plate.

This popular clip of Manny is showing the same thing in my opinion. Lower half and upper half being stretched against each other. Pelvic girdle turning some. Scap activating...

At launch, the body works in unison to deliver the barrel to the ball. The rear elbow drops while the barrel simultaneously begins to turn. If you want to say the hands are turning it, that's fine. If you want to say the scap is lowering the arm while the hands maintain the hinge angle, that's fine too. As with most other concepts, hinge angle has been beaten to death because of people's tendency to over exaggerate things. Anyway, as the rear elbow is dropping the front arm will typically maintain it's distance from the chest. This process essentially creates the arc that I am referring to.

Right now I'm of the opinion the once one gets to the launch position (if one calls it a pass through position, thats fine with me), the Legs are stabalizing and the stretch core is fired against them. JMO the hips are not firing, the core by the BB is. As the elbow starts to slot and the hands swing down into the turning core the barrel is arced. This is not a 2 step process, this is happening simultaniously with one another,

All JMO, but we very close to the same view.

As you can see ladies and gentleman you can have a civil discussion on here! You just have to get a clear definition of the other persons terms first, before any assumptions.

JMO / YMMV

Bold above... Nope, we agree on this. The only thing about it that is not natural, is that few young hitters do this without some instruction. ABAF and bat drag are extremely common in young hitters.

I also agree with your sentiments about civil discussion. It's something that is common to DFP but has been lacking in the hitting forums for a long time. Thank you for that.

 

[FP26]

@FP26

Sorry for the delay. It's a beautiful day here in PA so I figured I would take advantage of the nice weather and cut my lawn...

First of all, before we discuss launching the barrel, I believe it is important to first discuss how we get there...

As Donaldson makes his forward move, I would like to point out two things. 1) Notice how the pelvic girdle turns. almost as if he is opening up towards the pitcher. 2) Also notice his rear arm going back, sort of towards where the dugout would be behind him. In my opinion all good hitters have a combination of these two moves to some degree. Some will have more of one. Some will have more of the other. Much of that will depend on the hitter's personal range of motion. In any event, the hitter is getting to "max stretch" at this point. There is a stretch starting in his hips, going through his core, and ultimately concluding in his back (scap area). Some people will focus more on what's referred to as the "SCIP axis", which is primarily a rear-legged type stretch, starting in the rear hip/upper leg and ending in the rear scap. Some will include the entire core and/or torso when they discuss this. I really don't have an issue with either adaptation, as I believe if you get into this type of pass through position prior to launch, what muscles are and are not involved doesn't seem that important to me. Ultimately this would be what I consider the launch position. Honestly, the clip may need another frame or so...

The bold above I pretty much fully agree, only way we might differ is that I personally view these actions as something that should occur naturally. The pelvic girdle by what I feel wants to open on its own without any action by me when I stride. the upper I feel is stretching by resisting with the core against the opening pelvic girdle. Which creates the stretch because its trying to stay square to the plate.

This popular clip of Manny is showing the same thing in my opinion. Lower half and upper half being stretched against each other. Pelvic girdle turning some. Scap activating...

At launch, the body works in unison to deliver the barrel to the ball. The rear elbow drops while the barrel simultaneously begins to turn. If you want to say the hands are turning it, that's fine. If you want to say the scap is lowering the arm while the hands maintain the hinge angle, that's fine too. As with most other concepts, hinge angle has been beaten to death because of people's tendency to over exaggerate things. Anyway, as the rear elbow is dropping the front arm will typically maintain it's distance from the chest. This process essentially creates the arc that I am referring to.

Right now I'm of the opinion the once one gets to the launch position (if one calls it a pass through position, thats fine with me), the Legs are stabalizing and the stretch core is fired against them. JMO the hips are not firing, the core by the BB is. As the elbow starts to slot and the hands swing down into the turning core the barrel is arced. This is not a 2 step process, this is happening simultaniously with one another,

All JMO, but we very close to the same view.

As you can see ladies and gentleman you can have a civil discussion on here! You just have to get a clear definition of the other persons terms first, before any assumptions.

JMO / YMMV

@clemenslee1,

I have a follow up question for you if you do not mind. Specifically regarding the statement that the "core is firing against the legs". When you utilize the term "core", what muscle groups are you specifically referring to? Unfortunately, core has numerous different definitions. Some people refer specifically to the various abdominal muscles. While I agree that they play an important role in the process, I also believe there is more involved than that.

 

[julray]

That's a good writeup @clemenslee1 ... the only thing I disagree with is the barrel going back towards the dugout. I believe most good hitters get to a typical launch position where the barrel splits the head. Edit: So whether the barrel un-tips, tips or remains at the same angle depends on where it starts at the beginning of the sequence and where it needs to get to launch. Hitters do it differently and I believe this all timing and style.

Bichette getting the hands and barrel to launch position by raising the barrel


Olerud starts with the barrel on the correct angle, does not need to lower or raise


Biggio's barrel and hands doesn't move at all because they are already in launch position


Brett, is something like Bo, but his barrel never leaves his shoulder


And really I am putting too much focus on the barrel, but it's what we see moving most and it's the easiest indicator to use. Hitters are getting their hands in position to launch

 

[fanboi22]

Bold above... Nope, we agree on this. The only thing about it that is not natural, is that few young hitters do this without some instruction. ABAF and bat drag are extremely common in young hitters.

I also agree with your sentiments about civil discussion. It's something that is common to DFP but has been lacking in the hitting forums for a long time. Thank you for that.

Very good conversation. Thank you guys. I also agree with the comment the pelvic girdle opening is not natural. If that is what i think it means and to externally rotate the front leg before toe touch. When i try i have to really think about it as my body doesn't just want to naturally open up.

I also think a thing that is missing is the thought driving the serratus anterior or the punching muscle. If this isn't an active thought, i think you get bat drag. i dont just call it sequence. Many seem to be learly of saying you need to punch the top hand, but that is what that muscle does. and just because you have a good 'sequence' doesn't mean you don't drag. I believe it helps, but i think this is where the 'snap' and forced supination, and TTB all come into play. IMO it is another way of making sure your hands/arms stay committed to the swing. Otherwise they will be left behind. I just don't think getting into a 'good sequence' fixes this. A good sequence PLUS active hands/arms starting thru the SA punching muscle creates a good path.