Swing down

[julray]

@julray, don't you see that even you say that...

That's all any of "us" are saying, they're not the same barrel paths...demo to game swings.

Now not one of "us" have said that with proper sequence and posture that the "swing down" won't turn into the "behind and through" path that "we're" looking for...and have in fact told members here who use the "swing down" or "down to" instruction with their hitter(s), that they've done well with them, and that we liked their swings.

It's all about the getting the same results - getting the barrel path seen in MLB hitters' game swings - regardless of the method of instruction, and/or the cues used in getting there.

@FP26, In bold is a perfect example of my quote being taken out of context. It's not productive and makes the conversation cumbersome. For reference; https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/swing-down.41750/post-632963

MB, I've always said that, as a matter of fact most of us have.

My point is when you or somebody else say pro demos do not match barrel path in a game swing, it's used or done in a way to discredit and devalue the pros instruction. I'm not saying all the time, but it's quite often used in such a way.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

@FP26, In bold is a perfect example of my quote being taken out of context. It's not productive and makes the conversation cumbersome. For reference; https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/swing-down.41750/post-632963

MB, I've always said that, as a matter of fact most of us have.

My point is when you or somebody else says pros demos do not match barrel path in a game swing, it's used or done in a way to discredit and devalue the pros instruction. I'm not saying all the time, but it's quite often used in such a way.

Well if you can show me where I've discredited, or devalued a pro's instruction, or said they don't know what they're talking about...I'll mea culpa, apologize, and say I was wrong in doing so.

But I think you're going to be on a long snipe hunt, because I've never intentionally attempted to say such a thing, and I think you'll find that's it's a reader's bias interpretation of what I'm attempting to say, more so than me actually trying to vilify a pro's instruction.

 

[julray]

Well if you can show me where I've discredited, or devalued a pro's instruction, or said they don't know what they're talking about...I'll mea culpa, apologize, and say I was wrong in doing so.

But I think you're going to be on a long snipe hunt, because I've never intentionally attempted to say such a thing, and I think you'll find that's it's a reader's bias interpretation of what I'm attempting to say, more so than me actually trying to vilify a pro's instruction.

No interested in the gotcha game, if you never discredited a pros demo of "down to", then I apologize for saying you did.

 

[jdint]

No they don't unfortunately.

But do you understand FYB, posture etc? If so, you should be able to connect the dots. Why would you discard this valuable golden nugget of information the pros give us because they don't explain the entire process?

I went to a big data seminar 10 years ago. A leading expert was speaking and talked about the key aspects of data science and big data. He didn't have time to go into details, but I was interested in the field and he was the expert. I researched what he said, found out other experts were saying the same thing and connected the dots. Today I am a lead reporting and automation consultant. What he said back then helped shape my career today.

My point is, professionals often talk about the most important things in the little time they have... why ignore it? 99% of them say/demo/practice the same thing

I do understand what FYB means, but since the pros don't mention it (ever) should I be interested? I totally get what you are saying when you mention it (and I think it makes sense), but the fact is, the pros don't say it, and they are the experts, so there are no dots to connect. Posters are adding caveats and filling in the blanks on what they are saying. I'm not saying they are wrong at all, but am I listening to the experts/pros, or am I listening to the experts through the lens of DFP? Because the two are not the same.

AROD does a 7 minute video on swinging down on the ball. He gives a pretty good demo of how he thinks you should swing. He chops down on the ball and never mentions FYB or isolated hand path. He has plenty of time to mention these other facets if he felt they were important. He even likens it to a golf swing, so he is being pretty specific on actually hitting down on the ball to spin the ball up.

Lauren Chamberlain does entire clinics promoting chopping down on the ball to impart backspin. At least she did one clinic like this. Video shows she doesn't chop down on the ball. Again she has plenty of time to explain her process. Once @pattar starts taking lessons from her we will get more insight.

Jennie Finch and her dad go around the country promoting a hello elbow style of pitching and claim that's how she pitches. Video clearly shows that isn't how she pitches. She's arguably the most famous softball pitcher/player in history so......

I'm not claiming these people don't know what they are doing, because their results speak for themselves, but I do find their instruction a bit confusing.

 

[_MIA_]

Lauren Chamberlain does entire clinics promoting chopping down on the ball to impart backspin. At least she did one clinic like this. Video shows she doesn't chop down on the ball. Again she has plenty of time to explain her process. Once @pattar starts taking lessons from her we will get more insight.

I'm working on it with the idea that somebody will pony up the money. I do have an issue though since they usually ask what age group the hitter is in..You think saying 46U would be an issue?

 

[fanboi22]

View attachment 23394

tewks. cabrera.

move from the middle.

I think i am missing something, but these two gifs are at the core of the questions.

There have been a couple of comments on these and i agree with FP26 that the one on the left is the 'down to' that pros demo. I believe it is what they think and have tried to do. Why else would there be so many drills specific to get this action? i have no idea about the 'move from the middle' because i cannot see any difference with the 'middle'. I am also not one that thinks sequence can fix everything. (W=W can you help explain why the left hitter doesn't do this?)

The swing on the left to me is the move they promote, 'down to'. Over the many years without slow motion video, they probably didn't know any better, which imo is why you see so many demos of pros 'thinking' that is what they do. Just like Jennie Finch thinking that she has palm behind the ball and pushes the ball thru. That is old school and what she 'thought' she did. So she promoted it with drills and gimmicks. I am just struck by the fact we don't think that the hitters can be just as obtuse. I am of the opinion that the pros who are demoing 'down to' without the proper posture and position is because that's how they learned it and that's how they think they do it.

the pitchers who are athletic enough actually don't throw Hello Elbow, but that is how they explain it (ala Finch). Just like Pujols, he is athletic enough to let his body do the right thing, though i think he was probably told thru his early career to swing 'down to' which is how he explains it. I applaud those pros who try to explain what they think in detail, Josh Donaldson et al, but i truly truly believe, that some of the pros really just don't know. Dogmatic historical teachings still alive in the pitching world as well. i just don't think hitting is any different.

That being said does swing 'down to' work for some of the athletic individuals, sure. But the way it is demoed, like Hello Elbow is wrong, but imo is demoed the way they truly think it works.

 

[jamesd1628]

. . . . Once @pattar starts taking lessons from her we will get more insight. . . . .

 

[_MIA_]

Don't laugh..DD threw me two pitches yesterday after her BP and I only hit 1 of them out and when I did that she said "Is that all you got?" so now I am questioning my manhood and will go to any means necessary to get it back...

 

[FP26]

Great post @jdint. What we are getting is some people's interpretation of what the pros are actually saying. The assumption of course is that their interpretation of the pros is correct and everyone else's interpretation is wrong. I'm really not sure how that is any different than the hitting debates that have occurred for the last 30 years.

 

[julray]

I do understand what FYB means, but since the pros don't mention it (ever) should I be interested? I totally get what you are saying when you mention it (and I think it makes sense), but the fact is, the pros don't say it, and they are the experts, so there are no dots to connect. Posters are adding caveats and filling in the blanks on what they are saying. I'm not saying they are wrong at all, but am I listening to the experts/pros, or am I listening to the experts through the lens of DFP? Because the two are not the same.

AROD does a 7 minute video on swinging down on the ball. He gives a pretty good demo of how he thinks you should swing. He chops down on the ball and never mentions FYB or isolated hand path. He has plenty of time to mention these other facets if he felt they were important. He even likens it to a golf swing, so he is being pretty specific on actually hitting down on the ball to spin the ball up.

Lauren Chamberlain does entire clinics promoting chopping down on the ball to impart backspin. At least she did one clinic like this. Video shows she doesn't chop down on the ball. Again she has plenty of time to explain her process. Once @pattar starts taking lessons from her we will get more insight.

Jennie Finch and her dad go around the country promoting a hello elbow style of pitching and claim that's how she pitches. Video clearly shows that isn't how she pitches. She's arguably the most famous softball pitcher/player in history so......

I'm not claiming these people don't know what they are doing, because their results speak for themselves, but I do find their instruction a bit confusing.

Who are you listening to? Assuming probably DFP members who are contradicting what the pros say/demo and practice.. right?

I get it, it's confusing, it was for me as well and I challenged it. But more and more pros were saying it and I needed to investigate it... why would all these pros say the same thing?

I mean if you can look at a pro swing a see barrel path, why can't you look at a pro swing and see FYB and posture? So you take the pros instruction of isolating hand path down to, add the other ingredients missing from the demo. That was my journey, not saying it should be yours