Speed Variation

[Ken B]

I'd like to see a sticky where folks like you, sutherlandfinch, Pauly, Balswick, Hillhouse, BM, etc., can post about the mental/tactical side of pitching.

 

[Ken B]

"Where does he get those wonderful..." emoticons...?

I'll give anyone everything I know about pitching for free. My emoticon source? That'll cost ya...

 

[Rocketech1]

JS, some good points but since we have moved off the original topic I will respond.

First off, while I understand your point that its hard to work with students less than 10 years old for a variety of reasons, I think it would be a disservice to all those 7, 8, & 9 year olds who want to learn to pitch but don't have access to PCs such as your self. Also, you are forgetting the batters in your equation. They need to face good pitching at 8u and 10u otherwise it's a walkfest at these age levels and the kids are not prepared as they move up in division. I think it's important for these kids to get proper instruction early on so the bad habits don't creep in and are harder to fix later on. Just like your example, had the father come to you first his DD would not have had so many issues with her mechanics.

The second point is while in a perfect world the pitching/catching battery would always call the pitches, the reality is that it's much easier and efficient to have the coaches call the pitches in 8u, 10u, 12u. For example, we keep track of each of the opposing batters at bat and call the pitches accordingly the next time this batter comes to the plate. It's too much to ask of a 10yo catcher to remember these things. Maybe at 14u but not 10u. Whether or not these players are going D1 one day doesn't even enter my mind at this young age. These young pitchers and catchers have enough to worry about than having them try to call the game themselves.

 

[javasource]

They need to face good pitching at 8u and 10u otherwise it's a walkfest at these age levels and the kids are not prepared as they move up in division. I think it's important for these kids to get proper instruction early on so the bad habits don't creep in and are harder to fix later on. Just like your example, had the father come to you first his DD would not have had so many issues with her mechanics.

I totally agree with this... my original post was even longer... but I edited this out 'cause I was trying to keep it pseudo 'on-topic' regarding off-speed pitching. I do think there is a benefit in working with some younger ages... but I wouldn't recommend much more than i/r mechanics (scrop and crop pitching)... But, just like my editing it out in the last post... this answer does no justice to your thoughts on the matter...

I also agree with you on the complexities of real world pitching, to a certain extent...

My thoughts on that are in regards to structure... of practices/games... and that falls on the coaches. Some CHOOSE to call in the signals, I just don't think (IMO) that it's as much a benefit to the pitcher - as it is to the adults (at times).

Like cell phones, coaches are great inventions... but, there often over-utilized (in life and in games). lol Sorry... that was a freakin' horrible analogy... felt like I was in left field for a moment...

One of the calls that a lot of coaches make that absolutely drives me nuts is the: don't call a drop/breaking pitch with a runner on 3rd... It's as if they are acknowledging their lack of commitment with one of the primary catcher fundamentals, saying: "My catcher isn't that good with a ball in the dirt... so, Honey... don't throw any breaking pitches.

So, although I agree that at some ages... some of this stuff can get a little "over the head", I still don't think it's best for the coaches to call all the pitches... and if it's only because it's 'easier and more efficient'... I begin to wonder how efficient the coaches really are. I'm not in any way trying to start a scrub with you Rocketech... you know I dig your posts...

To me... more efficient and effective is:

1) Catchers learn signals for the pitches their pitchers can throw,
2) Pitchers learn age appropriate tendencies in practices,
3) Coaches chart,
4) coaches tell back-up pitchers the current batter tendencies,
5) back-up pitchers signal TENDENCIES (efficiently grouped/organized by coaches, of course), not pitches - to pitcher.. remember, we're talking 14U...
6). Pitcher waits for a pitch signal that she believes is best choice from catcher
7) Coaches review good and bad decisions with Pitchers between innings and between games. I usually have catchers/pitchers arrive 30 minutes or so before to go over these things and practice specifics... and then they leave 30 minutes before everyone else... last half hour is always not specific to these two positions...

Not saying this is the perfect system... but it is one that I have used effectively....

Thanks, Rocket!

 

[Greenmonsters]

Full disclosure - I am catcher-centric and understand that this is the pitching forum. So, big surprise, IMO, the catcher should be the one calling the pitches as trying to perfectly execute 100 or so pitches a game is an extremely difficult task, even for an elite pitcher, and merits the pitcher's full focus. For this to be done effectively, the catcher and pitcher need to work together so that the pitcher comes to trust the catcher's judgement, which is based on the catcher understanding the pitcher's arsenal and general strengths, an objective evaluation of the effectiveness of the pitcher's pitches at that point in time (it can vary on a day-day or even inning-inning basis), the umpire de jour's tendencies, the game situation, and the batter's strength and weaknesses. The only absolute is that the pitcher has the last word and so should never have to throw a pitch without conviction.

Why do college coaches call pitches from the bench then? I haven't heard anyone yet claim that they can read the batter, umpire, or pitcher better from the bench than from directly behind the plate so I have to believe that its because their catchers arrive in college without this skill set (or the coach is a control freak). IMO that is the fault of the youth rec, HS and TB coaches. The fact is that a U12 catcher can be easily trained to begin calling pitches, especially when most often the pitcher only has a FB and change. So by the time that they're ready for college, a catcher should have at least 6 years of pitch calling experience. Given that experience, a good catcher with a good scouting report and pre-game strategy discussion with the pitcher and coach, can call a much better game than a coach sitting on a bucket. A pitcher-catcher battery on the same page is a beautiful thing.

My 2 cents.

 

[FP26]

Some good stuff here concerning pitch calling. I think a lot of it depends on your team and their level of experience, but I like the ideas presented by javasource and Greenmonsters. Bottom line is the catcher and pitcher need to be on the same page and working together. DD played as a pickup in the fall. Prior to the game, the HC told her to pitch what she wanted. We talk about pitch selection quite a bit, so I wasn't worried about her choices. However, the catcher set up in the middle of the plate and had no idea what pitches were coming at her. As DD was hitting corners inside and outside, the catcher was constantly reaching. I really felt bad for the catcher whenever DD threw her drop. It's not an elite drop but it does drop 3 or 4 inches more than her fastball. Every time she threw it you could see the catcher's eyes get big. In between innings, DD suggested that I call the pitches through the catcher. For no other reason but so the catcher could prepare for what was coming and set up in the proper position.

 

[cuzmail]

When learning movement and off-speed pitches, there should already be a foundation of 'why' in place - which is the main reason I wait to work with pitchers until they approach the 'cognitive' milestones that accompany being 10+. The 'when' is, like Rick alluded to, a pregame or in-game process.... and it takes some work (not just from the pitcher). That said, fearing or not-understanding your opponents strengths - are horrible reasons for someone else to call their pitches... but sadly, some of the most common...

Very true in my experience with DD. We have always worked with the why. Just telling her to throw this pitch or that pitch doesn't really do a lot for her other than repetitive motion practice.

In 10U it didn't really register with her and I would get lots of shoulder shrugs with her answers. In 12U it started to click, but I could tell she would guess quite a bit at the answer when I asked her what she would throw for a certain situation/battter. In our first fall of 14U (still 12U eligible as an '00) she doesn't wait for the question, she answers before I can even ask the question with about 95% accuracy.

They will mature and if you give them the necessary tools to do the job, they will surprise you. Tell them the why so they aren't just a robot processing someone else's input. I would like to see more coaches work on the pitcher/catcher battery calling in 14U.

 

[javasource]

Very true in my experience with DD. We have always worked with the why. Just telling her to throw this pitch or that pitch doesn't really do a lot for her other than repetitive motion practice.

In 10U it didn't really register with her and I would get lots of shoulder shrugs with her answers. In 12U it started to click, but I could tell she would guess quite a bit at the answer when I asked her what she would throw for a certain situation/battter. In our first fall of 14U (still 12U eligible as an '00) she doesn't wait for the question, she answers before I can even ask the question with about 95% accuracy.

They will mature and if you give them the necessary tools to do the job, they will surprise you. Tell them the why so they aren't just a robot processing someone else's input. I would like to see more coaches work on the pitcher/catcher battery calling in 14U.

Cuzmail,

This is one of the better 'share your experiences' posts I've read on here. One of the most prevalent traits of parents that I've observed over the years is that they don't enable their kids... specifically the younger ones. They use the rationale that it's too much information... when in reality, it's their inability to relinquish control. Thanks for the input, it's obvious your DD is in great hands.