Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

[tom.guerry]

Posey and hitdr are siving very important feel descriptions and you would all be well off to understand what is meant by them.

ultimately the swing is controlled by feel which is not expressable in objective language with so many things happening together.

to add to the complexity, the body tunes into change not sameness, so the target is always a moving one, always the challenge to somehow Stay in the envelope.

video can support the understanding of feel as it changes, but video can not replace feel and much of what the feel cues express can NOT be seen on video, only the up or downstream actions.

Another important example would be the "keep the back/throwing elbow up" when you throw.

This is VERY important in the overhand throw, BUT when you look at video, what do you see ? The back elbow actually comes down. Does that mean people who use the back elbow up are stupid ?

I don't think so.

This same action is a key part to loading for MLB hitting.

you better understand what it means to keep your elbow up even when video shows it going down

 

[BoardMember]

I'm sorry but your theories dont stack up with people who have and still compete at the high level you claim to be an expert at. No matter what the high level players say and do, you try and put them down. All we want is the people to know actually what the high level players work on and say, that seems to really get you defensive.Why does that take something away from you?

This must not be directed at me because I never claimed to be an expert at anything and I didn't offer any theories........

I simply stated that separation is achieved during the positive move into toe-touch AND the hips open into toe-touch.

I was told by Posey both were wrong. I show'd Posey both were right, and explained a bit about why. Just a LITTLE BIT mind you.

Now I'm just a "video guru" trying to blow smoke up some butts????

You have NO idea........

Lack of understanding doesn't allow you to replace ignorance with arrogance.........

I already said, I was only trying to help. You two obviously don't need any.

One of you has Rod Carews book, and other admittedly doesn't understand the mechanics of the swing, but know's Mike Candrea.............

I'm impressed.........

Just remember, the next time you ask someone to SHOW YOU something you obviously don't understand........Be prepared for the answers.........You obviously weren't.......

BTW, don't mistake my responses for being offended. What I said is I waisted my time trying to help..........

I'll just go back to my cave and analyze some more video, and make some more stuff up.........:rofl:

 

[Hit Dr.24]

Thank you Tom. Posey and I are not trying to be confrontational but when people who have never played or have ever talked to high level athletes try to pass themselves along as experts and attack the great ones of the game that bothers us! We've played, we teach at the highest and youngest levels of the game! Our knowlege comes from having the chance to work with the best at the highest level. We are just passing what we have learned from the best in the business on to people who want to learn. All of this debating on rotational vs linear, baseball vs softball is garbage. Anyone who has played at the higher levels knows how hard it is to hit so we keep it simple.I have had an olympic hitter next to a major leaguer in the cages and they are exchanging ideas thats how it works. When hitting forced movements are bad natural movements are good.If you force rotation you pull off the ball, it happens from ground force up the chain of the body releasingas the wrists unhinge and the bat head whips. Baseball does it and so does softball. The body must be able to adjust in 3 tenths of a second if you are trying to rotate, tilt and use shoulders to get to the ball you are done..... The first thing your dd should learn is how to connect her lower half ,arms and hands in the proper sequence to deliver the bat head to the ball consistantly. After getting that done then you can teach her all of this high tec video stuff. Balance, rythum and the ability to deliver the bat to the ball with power and leverage are key to the sucess to any hitter. Thats awfully tough when spinning tilting and leaning are being taught. Use Candrea's method it works and its simple!

 

[jofus13]

From a fairly neutral bystander, just a simple WV hillbilly that is trying to learn so he can help his children get better at a game that they love, some of the statements made on here, and especially the constant name-dropping, etc., makes some posters come across as arrogant and "I'm better than you, so I'm right and you're wrong"-ish.

Just because someone has played before doesn't mean that some Joe Blow down the street that has devoted hours and hours to studying hitting, worked with their kids and probably other kids, etc., may not have come up with a different way of looking at things than someone else.

Because, IMHO, most of the arguments here, Baseball-101, eteamz, Heybucket, etc. etc. etc. are people who see something a little differently, but basically see the same thing, or word things a little differently, even though when you really look at it, they are saying the same things....

I think most of us that have been here a while know which posters have the personal phone number of multiple Div 1 coaches, take batting practice with MLB'ers, have batted against Olympic pitching, roomed with Babe Ruth, or whatever. Maybe even the ones that have their own website, who knows. I don't think I'm alone in just wanting to see why's and how's, not what's and who's

Just my 2 cents.

Edit to add>> I don't want to come across as not respecting what anyone has done in the past, or is doing now, or who they know or anything like that. I just think that there probably isn't anyone that can't still learn something about softball, baseball, brain surgery, or tiddlywinks, or whatever. To say someone's description of how this part of that part of a swing can't be right simply because they've never batted against Finch or Cat or Abbot seems a little shortsighted to me.

At least I know that there is a lot for me to learn about hitting a ball. Yeah, I played growing up, but I've learned a ton in the last 12 months or so, just from reading sites like this and going out either myself or with my kids and trying stuff out. Discussions like this one really help. Name-calling, finger-pointing, having the same argument over and over and over and over, etc., don't really help much.

Again, just my 2 cents, sorry so long.

 

[BoardMember]

Get Over Yourselves........

Thank you Tom. Posey and I are not trying to be confrontational but when people who have never played or have ever talked to high level athletes try to pass themselves along as experts and attack the great ones of the game that bothers us!

And who might you be refering to?

This is where you get yourselves in trouble. You shouldn't "assume" you are in the company of people like that. Although you may be at some point in time, you should be able to recognize the difference IF you are who you say you are.

You'll notice I didn't bother "dropping names" of the people I've played with, coached with, personally know, or the level of the players I've personally coached..........And I won't. I don't need to.........It doesn't matter. We're just here to discuss hitting. At least that's what I thought.

People who "constantly name drop" without offering any advise, theory of philosophy of their own, raise a big red flag to me.........

And both of you have done exactly that. Simply "parroting" what you've heard. And from what I've heard, not necessarily correctly. Neither one of you has offered anything but names........

I said I thought Coach Mike was behind the curve in hitting. Mountie posted something I've NEVER heard him say. Not even while sitting in the stands with him discussing hitting........As I said, I was happy to know that my top load timing matches his, and I didn't even now it.......

And the following told me all I needed to know about your Doc. After reading your attitude toward my mildly negetive assessment of Coach Mike's hitting video on Sports-Skool, and then reading this:

Epstein makes up so many false movements your kids swing will be scared for life! Find a coach who can teach the swing in the proper biomechanical sequence instead of a coach who was fired by every organization he's worked for.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

We've played, we teach at the highest and youngest levels of the game!

Prove it......So far, all I've seen is name dropping with ZERO substance. That tells me I'm in over your head here.......

Just keep teaching your "bodily releases".........

This thread has degraded to the point that has lost my interest........

TTYL........

 

[Mark H]

Great thread. Sure, feel is important but, to a great extent it's individual. If this or that feel or cue works for Mendoza or whoever, that's interesting and great. It's been said many times that any cue can be golden any given day with any given hitter. Having said that, discerning what is a cue and what is reality is a big deal for a teacher/instructor. If someone agrees with Boardmembers reality and has successful cues, approaches and feels to offer, that's one thing. When it comes to experts with huge resumes, they are always very worth listening to BUT, I figured out a long time ago you can find an experienced, resumed expert to support any number of positions concerning hitting. So (yeah here it comes) I've said for a long time, "always compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world". Let that be your truth detector as you try to figure out who's right, who's wrong, what's reality and what's cues or feel. It's not a perfect test, but it's the best I've come up with.

I suggest we all listen carefully to those who have been there and done that. I suggest we all don't assume this person or that person really has or has not been there and done that. I suggest those who have been there and done that always be prepared to answer challenges to their positions with an open mind and a calm ego.

 

[BoardMember]

Posey, no releation to Briana I'm guessing. Anyway, you said something I'd like to discuss:

Although when you look at her videos, you see her front hip opening. I see that also, but I know why her front hip opens and the process to get there. There is more than one dimension when studying hitting and that is what I have been trying to say all along. Take care.

When I get back from dinner, I'd like to ask a few questions regarding the "coaching aspect" of the above........And the difference between feeling it naturally by the time your 20, and teaching younger players HOW to feel it, and the value in knowing what really happens when trying to help these players "feel it".........Is it important as an instructor to know more then what it feels like, but why and how it happens and how to allow it to happen???

Food for thought for a later conversation.........

A quick example:
Mendoza say's she "locks in her hips" is what was said. If you saw a player opening her hips would you bark: "Keep those hips closed"!

 

[tom.guerry]

I hope we can all remain civil and get along here.

Board member, if you told a kid to keep the back elbow up in the overhand throw and you saw the elbow come down some would you bark "get that elbow back up" ?

Always ?

Never ?

It depends ?

On what might it depend ?

 

[Hit Dr.24]

Tom you probably get attacked also but please explain in your words how a hitter adjusts to different speeds and locations obviously actually doing it doesn't count in this forum.

 

[BoardMember]

I hope we can all remain civil and get along here.

Board member, if you told a kid to keep the back elbow up in the overhand throw and you saw the elbow come down some would you bark "get that elbow back up" ?

Always ?

Never ?

It depends ?

On what might it depend ?

When does it drop Tom? Load? Launch? How far down?

Elbow at the armpit? Below the arm pit?

Infielder/Outfielder? Catcher/Corner/Middle?