Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

[Mark H]

Not to link the two threads but I would like see a few people, namely the ones that chase each from board to board arguing essentially the same points address -

Yeah all that stuff is great but a separate thread I think. I would add I think baseball and softball do a better job of addressing those subjects than they do addressing the subject of mechanics so I view mechanics as the low hanging fruit.

 

[BoardMember]

hitdr -

I think the most accessible info on the net that I largely agree with is Mike Epstein's info. Not entirely "scientifically" correct, but as correct and complete as any description in the real world.

Here is the link for the available descriptions:

Mike and Mick

I couldn' help but laugh........

Originally Posted by HitDr24
Epstein makes up so many false movements your kids swing will be scared for life! Find a coach who can teach the swing in the proper biomechanical sequence instead of a coach who was fired by every organization he's worked for.

 

[straightleg]

Hit dr. 24 and Team posey 13.

I ask this in a respectful way.
Any chance you could post a clip of your swings.

This is my first post here so dont bash me too bad.

I teach hitting. I use RVP instructional and use the capture program. If candera said something on sportsskol different than his tapes, I think it was just a mistake.


Boardman from my understanding candera teach's exactly what you are saying. You fall to toe touch and start to seperate you hands. That is what I teach my dd.

Team posey is right if you do this early you are dead. Sounds like you both do the same thing.
That is why a video clip would be good.


I went to a seminar in middletown ohio with crystal. at the lunch
break she ate lunch with me and my dd.

What a great girl, friendly, very nice person.

She teach's rvp, candera, don slaught, plus more.

She has a controlled fall to toe touch, and seperates her hands as she does it, just like in the video posted here.


Thanks
Straightleg

 

[tom.guerry]

Boardmember -

I've been throught this for a while. I've been through phases thinking Epstein and Lau And Slaught and Candrea were way off base, but they aren't. They are very good and know what they are doing even if it doen't agree with what the engineers and scientist believe.

I alos went through phases thinking the scientists and engineers had a lot to offer, but most of them don't. They like simple things like how the ball and bat interact, not how the body learns.

Like our old buddy Donny Buster, I personally keep coming back to Williams and Epstein and understanding the depth of what they have said better.

Never had my picture taken with the Mick, but I did catch a foul ball off him in Spring training once.

 

[BoardMember]

The Simplest Approach is AWAYS the Best.......

Interesting. A few weeks ago, Yeager was THE BEST.......

Regardless Tom, you seem to be saying that the simplest understanding of the most complicated movements seems to be what you "return to" in the end. Well guess what. Regardless of all the biomechanical studying I've been though over the past 10 years or so, I never lost sight of that.

Maybe it's because I've been actively coaching in both a team and individual environment all those years and have stayed in touch with both "worlds".

Oh well regardless, that's one hell of a good thing. Maybe your midlife crisis is over.......

I think what happened is Posey and DrKnow have re-opened your eyes to the level of the "real world" help we can offer.

The following is NOT real world help to the MAJORITY of people reading this stuff. Now re-read this and attempt to condense it into something the members on these boards can actually use.......Like maybe 2 paragraphs.....

Also, keep in mind that there are an overwhelming number of women coaches entering the arena, and THEY ARE NOT WEEKEND GOLFERS like yourself........

I have learned over the years the most from comparing and contrasting similar skills and find the overhand throw, golf swing, and hitting swing really benefit from being studied and performed together.

Boardmember is an excellent fastpitch pitching coach, and there is some good carryover there as well.

Overall, I think the golf approach to learning the swing is the best, best described by Hardy in his books PLANE TRUTH FOR GOLFERS, and PLANE TRUTH - MASTER'S CLASS.

In baseball/fastpitch, I think it is important to learn overhand throw and hitting swing together early.

The basic thrust of Hardy's golf apporach is that there are 2 "pure" swing patterns, and the purer your swing sequence is, the more timing error leeway you have so the more effective and consistent your swing is.

The more "in position" you are, the better you do over time. The more you add difficult to control aspects, the more "out of position" you are and the less easy it becomes to compensate and still time good contact.

In hitting as best described by Williams, you need to use the 2 plane type pattern where the swing plane is lined up as well as possible with the trajectory of the pitch. This means a good pitch is about the adjustment you make that puts you "in position" as well as possible to execute a well timed/squared contact.

In hitting, the primary requirement is adequately timed swing so the adjustment needs to have a combination of well lined up swing plane AND quick acceleration that starts well behind the batter in the swing plane (see Mankin "plt" and "tht" above). Mankin also describes this nicely as "early batspeed". The MLB swing keeps the hands back as long as possible to maximize read time while the body coils and adjustment starts. Then there is a quick last stretch of the torso and firing of the bat as well timed and lined up as possible.

Williams describes the swing in terms of the contact zone as always a "slight upswing", level to the ball (lined up plane) with top hand wrist still cocked,just starting to uncock through contact (sign of good connection to unloading torso with no deceleration before contact, max batspeed at contact makes for minimal timing error).

Williams and Epstein describe the other key requirments as get a good pitch to hit, start on time, hips lead hands, adjust plane to pitch, hands stay in.

The adjustment approach preferred by Epstein is to based on a short range of swing radiuses (radii) which makes for a quick swing that permits bellying up to the plate.

For hitting heat with power, the plan is to look in or out and adjust up down on fly.

Up down adjustment is primarily related to how hips/weight shift react with shoulder tilt action, hips working within limits set by foot/leg action and foot/leg action slaved to arm/hand/bat/barrell action. This is a 2 plane pattern with upper and lower body actions controlled/coordinated by upper body to then merge/blend to adjust/completeload/unload.

Bat starts turning/uncocking as you open the front leg/hips into toe touch (you can keep the front foot/hip nmore closed/longer/even past toe touch by using a longer radius off the plate swing), this is "opening"/loading/coiling, not the active firing of hips which in this thread we are referring to as "rotation").

When GO decision is made based on what is anticipated and read, the shoulders tilt slaved to the hands turning the barrell to set the axis more upright for high ball or staying more leaned back for low ball.

This way, the depth of contact/timing is about the same for high vs low.

The high ball involves a quicker/shorter swing radius but takes more time to get the axis forward/upright vs the longer low ball swing that starts earlier as axis does not need to get more upright.

Timing for out vs in location is too diferent to cover the whole plate by power swing with a good pitcher, so better to look in or out or shorten up if the situation demands.

If you get offspeed, you can continue/prolong the "rubberbandwinding" into toe touch (uncoking bat/"opening front leg/hips), sit on back leg and keep axis leaned back as long as possible, but eventually you will get stuck out on front foot and just have to make an emergency swing or take.

This type of swing becomes longer/more loopy and uppercutting, BUT that is fine because that plane/trajectory matches offspeed stuff.

Note in addition to describing the plane matching spatially as level to the pitch, Williams also explains that the JOYSPOT is best exposed when contact is 15 degrees before or 30 degrees after perpendicular which is a good expression of the timing element involved here since the bat is accelerating/picking up speed during this slice of the swing plane which then puts contact in the middle of the timing window even though it is not in the middle of the spatial window.

Also, better late than early in Williams opinion, and if you miss, you usually miss low (if you are in the high level pattern/envelope) so raise your sites if you are having trouble catching up.

Boardmember -

I've been throught this for a while. I've been through phases thinking Epstein and Lau And Slaught and Candrea were way off base, but they aren't. They are very good and know what they are doing even if it doen't agree with what the engineers and scientist believe.

I alos went through phases thinking the scientists and engineers had a lot to offer, but most of them don't. They like simple things like how the ball and bat interact, not how the body learns.

Like our old buddy Donny Buster, I personally keep coming back to Williams and Epstein and understanding the depth of what they have said better.

Never had my picture taken with the Mick, but I did catch a foul ball off him in Spring training once.

 

[tom.guerry]

Boardmember-

Rather than condense things, I would recommend trying to read SCIENCE OF HITTING and the Epstein articles and let me know if you have any questions.

All the best.

 

[BoardMember]

By the way:

Barry likes to get to a punching position and swing down and catch the ball on the bat and be top hand dominant.

But since video does not show he does this, maybe he's just uninformed.

Oh but the video DOES show it alright. Bonds has on the "punchiest" swings off all time.....Right hand under straight guy punch to the pitcher. That's why his follow through can look "jerky" at times.........Everything goes STRAIGHT THROUGH THE PLANE.........Best plane matcher of all time IMO........

 

[BoardMember]

Boardmember-

Rather than condense things, I would recommend trying to read SCIENCE OF HITTING and the Epstein articles and let me know if you have any questions.

All the best.

You wouldn't be condensing for me Tom, I don't need it condensed.

You'd be condensing it for the people you're trying to help.

If that is your motivation to post here, of course you'd understand, and I bet they'd appreciate it.............

 

[tom.guerry]

Boardmember -

there is the story of Barry talking to Slaught about swinging down and Slaught showing him he swings up.

What was Slaught talking about ?

Just like the "keep the elbow up" cue, the "swing down" cue can be useful even though as Williams describes it (like Slaught), the desired swing through contact is the "slight upswing".

"swing down" (and then up some) is the 2 plane swing/MLB pattern.

"Swing around" is the single plane PCR pattern.

So let's go back to the question:

If you told them to swing down and you saw them actually swing up, would you bark at them,etc,etc ?

Maybe you have to keep the elbow up to swing down to swing up.

No questions about Epstein/Williams ?

 

[BoardMember]

So let's go back to the question:

If you told them to swing down and you saw them actually swing up, would you bark at them,etc,etc ?

Maybe you have to keep the elbow up to swing down to swing up.

Did you ask me this? I though you asked me about throwing, then dropped the question all together.........

No questions about Epstein/Williams ?

Absolutely none, thx..........

BTW, raising the back elbow during the load is something I think is a key to NOT having to bark: "Keep it up"............

Works the same in throwing.........

And understanding the reason for opening the front hip into plant is key to NOT having the bark: "Keep your hips square"........

Capish?