Should we use MLB hitters as examples?
- Thread starter Ken Krause
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Ken, thanks for starting this thread.
When Epstein gave his first "Do We Teach What We See" seminar back in 2000, he talked about how players trying to get to the next level, were in many cases ahead of their coaches when it came to knowledge of the swing. The coaches were teaching linear hitting mechanics, and the players were recording MLB hitters on tv, comparing those swings to what they were being taught by their coaches, and then making adjustments on their own to rotational mechanics.
I wonder if a similar scenario is playing itself out today in fastpitch with the MLB swing. Players like Cochran, who has studied Ted Williams since the age of 11, certainly seem to be ahead of the curve. How many young girls have gone out and bought a copy of Ted's "Science of Hitting" book, after watching the interview with Cochran two years ago at the College Fastpitch World Series, where she said that she carries a copy of Ted's book in her backpack?
Back in 2003, Enquist realized that many of the best hitters in fastpitch were using MLB rotational mechanics rather than the mechanics she taught at the time. She figured this out by comparing the better fastpitch hitters to MLB hitters. Which begs the question, how did these fastpitch hitters learn MLB rotational mechanics if the top coaches in fastpitch at the time were teaching something entirely different? Is it possible that the fastpitch hitters were studying MLB hitters on the side and making adjustments on their own?
I believe it is very likely that there are players in fastpitch who use MLB hitters as examples to improve their mechanics. IMO, fastpitch coaches will need to do the same in order to keep up with the players. We should never underestimate the ability of the more driven and competitive girls, to figure this stuff out on their own.
When Epstein gave his first "Do We Teach What We See" seminar back in 2000, he talked about how players trying to get to the next level, were in many cases ahead of their coaches when it came to knowledge of the swing. The coaches were teaching linear hitting mechanics, and the players were recording MLB hitters on tv, comparing those swings to what they were being taught by their coaches, and then making adjustments on their own to rotational mechanics.
I wonder if a similar scenario is playing itself out today in fastpitch with the MLB swing. Players like Cochran, who has studied Ted Williams since the age of 11, certainly seem to be ahead of the curve. How many young girls have gone out and bought a copy of Ted's "Science of Hitting" book, after watching the interview with Cochran two years ago at the College Fastpitch World Series, where she said that she carries a copy of Ted's book in her backpack?
Back in 2003, Enquist realized that many of the best hitters in fastpitch were using MLB rotational mechanics rather than the mechanics she taught at the time. She figured this out by comparing the better fastpitch hitters to MLB hitters. Which begs the question, how did these fastpitch hitters learn MLB rotational mechanics if the top coaches in fastpitch at the time were teaching something entirely different? Is it possible that the fastpitch hitters were studying MLB hitters on the side and making adjustments on their own?
I believe it is very likely that there are players in fastpitch who use MLB hitters as examples to improve their mechanics. IMO, fastpitch coaches will need to do the same in order to keep up with the players. We should never underestimate the ability of the more driven and competitive girls, to figure this stuff out on their own.
Without a doubt Mark. When I get one that buys in then its a lot of fun to watch him develop.
Howard said :
"Unless the girls played baseball with the boys there are a lot of skills that are missing from the girls just getting started."
AMEN.
In my opinion, the hardest thing about learning the swing is the early preparation part that is extremely similar to overhand thow. the motions are very similaru until the point in the swing where the bat has started untipping/unocking rearward while the front leg and hip have started opening.
add this to the Epstein/Williams apporach with a few additional points of emphasis regarding rearward acceleration of tha bat and dynamic balance as pointed out by wellphyt and you are good to go.
the single biggest thing a swing coach can do to get better is to learn how to toeach overhand throw so the throw and swing can be developed togteher.
learning posture/how to move the body in support of the swing is the most poorly understood part of the swing now that the role of the rearward acceleration of the bat has been clarified as in reverse top hand drill.
to understand how the lower body works it is useful to understand the hardy swing patterns in golf.
the 1 plane golf swing is like the gate swing.
the 2 plane golf swing is like the high level swing that resembles throwing.
notice how diferent these 2 methods are in terms of supporting a very different flow of weight shift and body positions:
Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - Two Plane from Down the Line
Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - One Plane from Down the Line
In the high level swing, you want to keep the hands and weight back even longer to maximize ability to read and adjust.
"Unless the girls played baseball with the boys there are a lot of skills that are missing from the girls just getting started."
AMEN.
In my opinion, the hardest thing about learning the swing is the early preparation part that is extremely similar to overhand thow. the motions are very similaru until the point in the swing where the bat has started untipping/unocking rearward while the front leg and hip have started opening.
add this to the Epstein/Williams apporach with a few additional points of emphasis regarding rearward acceleration of tha bat and dynamic balance as pointed out by wellphyt and you are good to go.
the single biggest thing a swing coach can do to get better is to learn how to toeach overhand throw so the throw and swing can be developed togteher.
learning posture/how to move the body in support of the swing is the most poorly understood part of the swing now that the role of the rearward acceleration of the bat has been clarified as in reverse top hand drill.
to understand how the lower body works it is useful to understand the hardy swing patterns in golf.
the 1 plane golf swing is like the gate swing.
the 2 plane golf swing is like the high level swing that resembles throwing.
notice how diferent these 2 methods are in terms of supporting a very different flow of weight shift and body positions:
Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - Two Plane from Down the Line
Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - One Plane from Down the Line
In the high level swing, you want to keep the hands and weight back even longer to maximize ability to read and adjust.
I suppose Im a little narrow minded here, but I see little value in analyzing the golf swing in a softball forum. for one thing, I have never seen a golfer get down in an athletic stance....imagining jeff bagwell here LOL, for anotherthat huge windup with the club......anyway, I have enough just trying to teach a good baseball/softball swing.
- Oct 12, 2009
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Serious question: How would you teach the swing differently? What is the alternative if not linear or rotational? What would you tweak or change?
Another thought occurred to me re: fastpitch v. baseball swing examples. You don't have to show the whole swing to get what you need. I think most of us work on specific issues when we're teaching. I know I do. So even if you don't like someone's full swing, you could certainly show the phase you're working on if you like that. It might solve some of the "need to see a female do it" issues.
If any of you can coach a hitter to be better than this, let me know. Because whoever you think is the best in the world, this is plenty good enough as a goal for any girl I've had the pleasure to coach.
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Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Evolution
Very good thread going here - provocative and constructive. I've got 3 points to make
1) Once anyone of us here or anywhere commits to teaching our DDs, players, or students how to swing, noone's objective is anything less than to teach the most effective swing possible.
2) If FP SB had been around as long as BB then there wouldn't have been a need for this thread. There seems to be a lack of good female examples, or maybe more correctly, a lack of publically available videos of good female hitters, to use as a frame of reference and visual aid. This should change as the sport evolves, but for now we often end up resorting to video of the best male hitters.
3) Its important to recognize that the leading edge thinking in any field of study, whether it be particle physics or even BB or SB, is dynamic. We advance our knowledge by keeping an open mind and re-evaluating what we think we know and weighing that relative to new and seemingly contrary claims. If the new theory or twist is sound and holds up to scrutiny (or Mark H's video truthing) than we're limiting ourselves (and those we teach) if we don't incorporate it. 25 years ago in college physics 101 electrons, protons, and nuetrons were the smallest known particles - now its nuetrinos, quarks and lord knows what other things they're studying over in that European collider tunnel. When they're done, I heard that the ASA is going to use it to develop new bat performance standards.
My mantra is - listen, comprehend, evaluate, accept or reject. Repeat.
Greenmonsters
Very good thread going here - provocative and constructive. I've got 3 points to make
1) Once anyone of us here or anywhere commits to teaching our DDs, players, or students how to swing, noone's objective is anything less than to teach the most effective swing possible.
2) If FP SB had been around as long as BB then there wouldn't have been a need for this thread. There seems to be a lack of good female examples, or maybe more correctly, a lack of publically available videos of good female hitters, to use as a frame of reference and visual aid. This should change as the sport evolves, but for now we often end up resorting to video of the best male hitters.
3) Its important to recognize that the leading edge thinking in any field of study, whether it be particle physics or even BB or SB, is dynamic. We advance our knowledge by keeping an open mind and re-evaluating what we think we know and weighing that relative to new and seemingly contrary claims. If the new theory or twist is sound and holds up to scrutiny (or Mark H's video truthing) than we're limiting ourselves (and those we teach) if we don't incorporate it. 25 years ago in college physics 101 electrons, protons, and nuetrons were the smallest known particles - now its nuetrinos, quarks and lord knows what other things they're studying over in that European collider tunnel. When they're done, I heard that the ASA is going to use it to develop new bat performance standards.
My mantra is - listen, comprehend, evaluate, accept or reject. Repeat.
Greenmonsters
Kudos. This girl can rake. (Baseball term for hitting a ton!)
