Scoring rules

[MTR]

My point about posting the link to NFHS SB records, was to show HS SB has been around since at least 1939. That doesn’t refute what you said at all, but it does kind of show that comparing a program that began as early as 1939 with one that began in 1974 isn’t really fair to either one. Your statement would certainly have been true for HSSB, but while it would have been true to at least some degree in the ‘70’s, its much more likely that there would have been a lot more experienced coaches out there.

As was the game at the collegiate level, but that was prior to becoming organized under the NCAA which only shows records from 1982. In both, there was little "national" organization for either HS or college. The HS game was not played everywhere, by everyone. It all depends on where you lived, if your school supported the game, (still, not all do) and if you can find relatively local competition. In my area, in the late 60s, softball was dropped as it was considered "not lady-like", so the local HS association replaced it with.......lacrosse! Now, I'm a big lax fan, more so of the box than field, but really?

What makes you believe there aren’t still many schools that have the same requirements? Most of the schools around here require the HC to be either a teacher or an administrator of some school district.

Again, all depends on where you live. In my area, that used to be the requirement, but they ended up with unqualified individuals being given the job and the rule was changed to allow outside coaches. Unfortunately, even today, the teacher's union contract requires the position be given to a teacher that applies before going outside the school, regardless of the qualification or more often, the lack thereof. And there are teachers who want the extra money that have little to no regard for the game or players and that is a damn shame. In some cases, it has turned into an outright embarrassment.

As for LLI organizations, that’s probably correct, but the same can be said for baseball as well. It mighty rare to have coaches in LLI, or at any of the lower rec levels that aren’t simply parents doing it while their child is playing. Its not until you get to the travel/tournament venues where the coaches get paid that you’ll find the better coaches in any sport.

Which, IMO, has been driven over the past thirty years by the carrot chase. When I was growing up, the local youth coaches (non-LL, but better rules for transitioning) were often a former pro or semi-pro player who lived in the area. I believe LL does attempt to keep the neighborhood flavor in the game, something travel ball has abandoned.

Well, I certainly can’t and won’t argue that there are differences between LLI SB and all others. But to me it makes no more difference than it does for baseball. Its recreational only, and not intended to be D1 caliber SB. LLI is likely the main source for players because they have to start someplace. Its not very often you’ll find an 8YO player ready to face Jennie Finch, so where do they learn the basics? Does every “good” SB player start off playing tournaments and traveling all over the place?

My point is, LLI SB doesn’t have to be anything other than what it is, a place for kids to learn the basics of playing a sport many millions love.

And I completely agree. Problem is many of the carrot chasers are prepping/pushing their children at a very early age to BE the next Jenny Finch. In my very unpopular opinion, players are being pushed into highly competitive situations long before they should be and really are not given the time to learn without sacrificing other parts of their childhood.

For about a decade, I have been suggesting to those I know in ASA (not that they listened) that they develop a partnership with LL which will give the younger players a place to start and learn and become comfortable with the basics at their pace. In doing so, LL keeps the neighborhood flavor and operate in conjunction with what is now the "B" program for ASA. Those who want to transition to travel ball, let them move to ASA's A ball program and do so without a major adjustment in rules.

This would have to be a boon for both in registration and savings on insurance. The LL could also take advantage of ASA's umpire training program for the umpires that would continue to be LL-registered.

Like I said, though, unpopular.

 

[Scorekeeper]

As was the game at the collegiate level, but that was prior to becoming organized under the NCAA which only shows records from 1982. In both, there was little "national" organization for either HS or college. The HS game was not played everywhere, by everyone. It all depends on where you lived, if your school supported the game, (still, not all do) and if you can find relatively local competition. In my area, in the late 60s, softball was dropped as it was considered "not lady-like", so the local HS association replaced it with.......lacrosse! Now, I'm a big lax fan, more so of the box than field, but really?

I wish I could remember more about girl’s sports when I was growing up in northeastern Ohio in the 50’s and 60’s. I remember vividly that every grocery store, bar, gas station, restaurant, bowling alley, etc. had a FP men’s team, and there were literally games every night of the well darn near all year long, but the old gray matter’s hazy about sport for the distaff side. I can remember volleyball was popular, but I truly don’t remember other sports.

Again, all depends on where you live. In my area, that used to be the requirement, but they ended up with unqualified individuals being given the job and the rule was changed to allow outside coaches. Unfortunately, even today, the teacher's union contract requires the position be given to a teacher that applies before going outside the school, regardless of the qualification or more often, the lack thereof. And there are teachers who want the extra money that have little to no regard for the game or players and that is a damn shame. In some cases, it has turned into an outright embarrassment.

The whole mish-mosh has been pretty bad, but I think a lot of that comes from pure ignorance and a lack of quality teachers/coaches of the various sports. As people get more knowledge, that ignorance seems to dissipate fairly well, albeit too slowly.

Which, IMO, has been driven over the past thirty years by the carrot chase. When I was growing up, the local youth coaches (non-LL, but better rules for transitioning) were often a former pro or semi-pro player who lived in the area. I believe LL does attempt to keep the neighborhood flavor in the game, something travel ball has abandoned.

One of the things that stopped even more progress from being made, was that the ignorance didn’t just stop with low level players or coaches. Even today there are very successful professional ball players that are lousy coaches because they never really understood what it was that made them as good as they were. Speaking only of baseball, it’s a shame, but I’ve seen many a promising player seek out private coaching from an ex-pro or top college player, only to be lost in the muddle of poor cues and clichés.

And I completely agree. Problem is many of the carrot chasers are prepping/pushing their children at a very early age to BE the next Jenny Finch. In my very unpopular opinion, players are being pushed into highly competitive situations long before they should be and really are not given the time to learn without sacrificing other parts of their childhood.

Well, we sure share the same view. I’ve gotten into hundreds if not thousands of “discussions” with people trying to get them to understand that the love of the game should be there before the game turns into a job. Sadly though, when people begin sending Li’l Sally or Johnny to private lessons and putting them on regimens that the best of the best follow, they’ve taken the game out of the game.

For a while now I’ve had the pleasure of scoring for the guy who was Dustin Pedroia’s HS coach, and during that time have gotten to talk to him, his parents, and many others who knew him when. One thing always strikes me, and that’s that he still PLAYS a GAME, not does a job. IMHO, when you take that away from kids, they may certainly excel, but something vial is lost.

For about a decade, I have been suggesting to those I know in ASA (not that they listened) that they develop a partnership with LL which will give the younger players a place to start and learn and become comfortable with the basics at their pace. In doing so, LL keeps the neighborhood flavor and operate in conjunction with what is now the "B" program for ASA. Those who want to transition to travel ball, let them move to ASA's A ball program and do so without a major adjustment in rules.

This would have to be a boon for both in registration and savings on insurance. The LL could also take advantage of ASA's umpire training program for the umpires that would continue to be LL-registered.

Like I said, though, unpopular.

I’ve been a bit of a PITA in something similar having to do with LLI in baseball. Our problem is different in that basic philosophies are pitted against each other. In BB’s case its “open” bases and field size. The game LLI plays in baseball for their 12U kids perfectly suits about 90% of the players, but those “carrot chasers” as you call them only concern themselves with the 10%, and that’s a real shame.

Oh well, hopefully one day that will change too.

 

[FastPitch-Dad]

back to the topic of Scoring Rules for Fast Pitch...

Many years ago, I ran across the the Jeri Findlay NFCA publication (referenced earlier) --- and it has stood the test of time for me as the best "fast pitch specific" scoring explanation i have ever run across. http://www.softballclinics.com/pdf/Score-Keeping.pdf.

In reviewing it and other rule publications (e.g. MLB NCAA NFHS ASA PGF USSSA NFS ) over time, I have come to the personal conclusion, 'official scoring' cuts across the various leagues fairly well - with difference only when leagues have unique rules, (eg Balks, DP/ Flex or DH, ERA9 vs ERA7). For common terms, (including hits errors, Sacs Steals, I have be able to apply consistent "scoring standards" across fastpitch and baseball at various age levels. Hence making MLB 10.0 the default go to standard for scoring techniques)

I would welcome some one to compare and contrast differences in Findlay Fast pitch Scoring with MLB OBR rule 10 or another credible source and demonstrate where OBR 10 is not the defacto "standard" for scorekeeping.

you mention when to credit a WP vs PB is different in MLB than NFHS .. that is the kind of variances with citations, that would be worth identifying.

 

[FastPitch-Dad]

Here is a great example of a post that is Scoring related.. posted under Softball Rules Questions..
(not sure they would have looked further to post under another heading, but it is clearly Scoring and Stats related not umpire related. )

When keeping stats on pitchers where do you put the dropped 3rd strike?
Is it marked as a strike and when that runner scores you count the run as an earned run?

source: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/16498-dropped-3rd-strike.html

 

[Greenmonsters]

back to the topic of Scoring Rules for Fast Pitch...

Many years ago, I ran across the the Jeri Findlay NFCA publication (referenced earlier) --- and it has stood the test of time for me as the best "fast pitch specific" scoring explanation i have ever run across. http://www.softballclinics.com/pdf/Score-Keeping.pdf.

In reviewing it and other rule publications (e.g. MLB NCAA NFHS ASA PGF USSSA NFS ) over time, I have come to the personal conclusion, 'official scoring' cuts across the various leagues fairly well - with difference only when leagues have unique rules, (eg Balks, DP/ Flex or DH, ERA9 vs ERA7). For common terms, (including hits errors, Sacs Steals, I have be able to apply consistent "scoring standards" across fastpitch and baseball at various age levels. Hence making MLB 10.0 the default go to standard for scoring techniques)

I would welcome some one to compare and contrast differences in Findlay Fast pitch Scoring with MLB OBR rule 10 or another credible source and demonstrate where OBR 10 is not the defacto "standard" for scorekeeping.

you mention when to credit a WP vs PB is different in MLB than NFHS .. that is the kind of variances with citations, that would be worth identifying.

From a FP standpoint, jlook no further than the difference in WP/PB guidelines between the NFCA/Atec and NCAA.

 

[FastPitch-Dad]

From a FP standpoint, jlook no further than the difference in WP/PB guidelines between the NFCA/Atec and NCAA.

I am not an expert, so i am interested in understanding exactly those kind of differences
(I am not a pitcher or a catcher dad either, so no material skin in the WP/PB game)

here are Definitions of WILD PITCH I see in the "scoring rules.". ...

The big difference is ...?

NCAA Softball
14.27 Wild Pitch
A wild pitch is charged to a pitcher when the pitch is so high, wide or low that the catcher cannot handle the ball with ordinary effort and at least one runner advances. Any pitch in the dirt is wild. Only one wild pitch is recorded regardless of the number of runners who advance or the number of bases advanced. A third strike not handled by the catcher because it was wild, when the batter reaches first base safely, is scored as both a wild pitch and a strikeout. No wild pitch is charged if a runner stealing on the pitch advances only one base. A wild pitch is not an error.

NFHS Softball
Section 6 Pitchers Record
ART. 1 . . . A wild pitch (F.P.) shall be charged to the pitcher when a ball legally delivered to the batter is so high, or so low (including any pitch which touches the ground in front of home base), or so far away from home base that the catcher does not stop or control it with ordinary effort and the batter-runner advances to first base or any runner advances a base.
…

NFC/ATEC
1. A wild pitch is charged to the pitcher when the pitcher throws so high, wide or low that the catcher can not handle the ball with ordinary effort and at least one runner advances.
a - Any pitch in the dirt which advances a runner is deemed wild.

MLB 10.13

A wild pitch is defined in Rule 2.00 (Wild Pitch). A passed ball is a statistic charged against a catcher whose action has caused a runner or runners to advance, as set forth in this Rule 10.13.
(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.

thank you for taking the time to educate on this..

 

[Greenmonsters]

I am not an expert, so i am interested in understanding exactly those kind of differences
(I am not a pitcher or a catcher dad either, so no material skin in the WP/PB game)

here are Definitions of WILD PITCH I see in the "scoring rules.". ...

The big difference is ...?











thank you for taking the time to educate on this..

Actually, the differenece is between NFHS and all the others. All dirt balls are WP except the NFHS dirt ball that doesn't bounce "in front of home plate"

 

[Scorekeeper]

I am not an expert, so i am interested in understanding exactly those kind of differences
(I am not a pitcher or a catcher dad either, so no material skin in the WP/PB game)

here are Definitions of WILD PITCH I see in the "scoring rules.". ...

The big difference is ...?

thank you for taking the time to educate on this..

Your post proves my point of there are way too many rule sets. Why should someone like yourself who’s making a real effort to educate himself have to read so many differently worded descriptions of the exact same event?

The real difference in the NFHS definition of a WP is that little word “SHALL”. In most rule sets a ball the touches the dirt pretty much absolves the receiving player of an error if the ball isn’t handled and causes prolonged life for a batter or allows a runner to move up. The NFHS rule also does that if a pitch touches the dirt in front of the plate, but not if it touches the dirt anywhere else.

That causes the scorer to make some kind of judgment about whether or not the catcher “should” have caught the ball. When that happens, you end up with one of those situations where a player or coach would feel the ball should have been handled cleanly, but the rules say different. When the rules leave no doubt as to what happens in a specific situation, it gets rid of one more controversial thing.

In this particular case, the only real difference is, a WP has no effect on whether or not a run is earned, but a PB can. That’s one reason that several years ago I decided to try to come up with a different way to measure a pitcher’s performance. Here’s an example of that from 2007 thru 2013 for all the pitchers on our HS team who threw at least 25 total innings.

View attachment whipplus1.pdf

To me its an interesting alternative way to look at pitchers because it counts WPs, balks, and their errors rather than just those stogy old things we’ve been told to look at for so many years. ;

 

[FastPitch-Dad]

interesting sort mistakes per inning. ..( and i see Matthew Stafford Pitches for you when not playing QB for the Lions (grin))

 

[Scorekeeper]

interesting sort mistakes per inning. ..( and i see Matthew Stafford Pitches for you when not playing QB for the Lions (grin))

Its unfortunate more statisticians can’t/won’t/don’t track pitchers the same way. Its really an eye opener when people get to cussin’ and discussin’ pitchers.

Not that it makes any difference other than as a point of trivia, but 3 of those pitchers signed professional contracts, one being drafted #113, 3 are still in HS, and only 3 who have graduated didn’t pitch at the college level.

Again, not really directly applicable to FPSB because pitchers and pitching are a very different paradigm, but Stafford is one of those kids every coach needs, but can’t really explain his great success. He doesn’t have much above average velocity, but challenges hitters by throwing a high volume of strikes that get put into play. Going into his Sr season, he’s 16-2 and needs only 2 more wins to have the most career wins in this program.