Scoring rules

[SoCal_Dad]

It does seem odd that ordinary effort is not defined in other rule books. However, in a later post you admit that this definition does not guarantee a uniform standard because scorekeepers have different levels of experience to deem whether an average fielder would have made the play. OBR intends it to be an objective standard, but there is no getting around the fact it is applied subjectively.

I can guarantee that nothing in the OBR was, is, or will ever be intended to be totally objective, as long as human beings are making the interpretations and the calls.

Not intended to be objective? Take another look at the comment on the definition -

This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder.

OBR clearly positions it as an objective standard. My previous post shows I agree that is not feasible.

I started off scoring baseball games for my son many years ago according to OBR, so I'm still fairly familiar with them and use them to fill in any gaps. For softball, I think the NFCA's ATEC guide is the best one for people that aren't knowledgeable about scoring. The NCAA softball rules are good, but a lot of people get tripped up by using the incomplete definitions for some items instead of the specific rules for them. They should remove the definitions for terms that are covered in their own section(s) (e.g. hits, errors, etc) or at least reference the other sections.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Not intended to be objective? Take another look at the comment on the definition -

This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder.

OBR clearly positions it as an objective standard. My previous post shows I agree that is not feasible.

Look, I’ve talked to people who have written MLB rules, I’ve talked to more rules committee folks than I care to admit, sat on rules committees, and even had a small part in writing rules myself, and no matter what is written, anyone with a brain knows nothing in the baseball rulebook can be an objective standard. The best that can ever be done is to make the standard one that can be applied as consistently as possible, but complete objectivity is off the table.

One has to understand too, that that rule wasn’t written for amateur baseball. It was directed to scorers of MLB and MiLB where the leagues are much better defined and the talent is much more even across the board than amateur venues. I still have the release from ML on that rule change somewhere, and if you could read it, you’d see that objectivity in their minds wasn’t then same as objectivity for all of baseball everywhere.

I started off scoring baseball games for my son many years ago according to OBR, so I'm still fairly familiar with them and use them to fill in any gaps. For softball, I think the NFCA's ATEC guide is the best one for people that aren't knowledgeable about scoring. The NCAA softball rules are good, but a lot of people get tripped up by using the incomplete definitions for some items instead of the specific rules for them. They should remove the definitions for terms that are covered in their own section(s) (e.g. hits, errors, etc) or at least reference the other sections.

I started out scoring a bit differently. I scored games using the rules the game were played under. At 1st it was LLI. I was one of the folks who caused LLI to remove rule 10.oo from the LLI rulebook because LLI didn’t want to deal with all the problems in it. When I scored tournament games, I made sure I had a copy of the rules being used, and that’s what I used. When I started scoring HSB, I went strictly by the NFHS rules, and when I scored college ball, it was the NCAA rules that governed me.

That all changed when I noticed the rule for determining a WP was much more stringent for HS than MLB. There were other issues, but that was the turning point for me. Now when I score a LL game, a tournament game, a HS game, a college game, or a pro game, the standard is always OBR.

Since as I said I do not score SB, I can’t opine which rule set is superior. I do know that friends of mine who do score SB, say the ASA rules are superior to the NCAA rules, plus they pertain to millions more players, and that’s about as much as I know about it. I did notice though, that there’s way too many differences between the large SB organization rules sets for my tastes. See http://downloads.asasoftball.com/umpires/pdf/13NCAA_NHFHS_and_ASA_Rule_Differences.pdf

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Look, I’ve talked to people who have written MLB rules, I’ve talked to more rules committee folks than I care to admit, sat on rules committees, and even had a small part in writing rules myself, and no matter what is written, anyone with a brain knows nothing in the baseball rulebook can be an objective standard. The best that can ever be done is to make the standard one that can be applied as consistently as possible, but complete objectivity is off the table.

Wow, thank you so much for gracing us with your presence. You should meet MTR - you have a lot in common...

One has to understand too, that that rule wasn’t written for amateur baseball. It was directed to scorers of MLB and MiLB where the leagues are much better defined and the talent is much more even across the board than amateur venues. I still have the release from ML on that rule change somewhere, and if you could read it, you’d see that objectivity in their minds wasn’t then same as objectivity for all of baseball everywhere.

This is a fastpitch softball forum. I doubt anyone on here really cares about this.

I started out scoring a bit differently. I scored games using the rules the game were played under. At 1st it was LLI. I was one of the folks who caused LLI to remove rule 10.oo from the LLI rulebook because LLI didn’t want to deal with all the problems in it. When I scored tournament games, I made sure I had a copy of the rules being used, and that’s what I used. When I started scoring HSB, I went strictly by the NFHS rules, and when I scored college ball, it was the NCAA rules that governed me.

(Yawn)

That all changed when I noticed the rule for determining a WP was much more stringent for HS than MLB. There were other issues, but that was the turning point for me. Now when I score a LL game, a tournament game, a HS game, a college game, or a pro game, the standard is always OBR.

(Zzzzzzzz)

Since as I said I do not score SB, I can’t opine which rule set is superior. I do know that friends of mine who do score SB, say the ASA rules are superior to the NCAA rules, plus they pertain to millions more players, and that’s about as much as I know about it.

LOL... The ASA scoring rules are a joke - 4 pages and half of that just lists what is recorded. They should be removed from the rule book. Other than that, ASA is the national governing body of softball and therefore has a big influence on the playing rules. According to an ASA insider, MTR, there is some coordination/discussion on rules between ASA, NFHS and NCAA.

I did notice though, that there’s way too many differences between the large SB organization rules sets for my tastes. See http://downloads.asasoftball.com/umpires/pdf/13NCAA_NHFHS_and_ASA_Rule_Differences.pdf

Baseball has the same thing - e.g. NFHS Baseball / Offical Baseball Rules Differences. I put together a chart of key rule differences when my son played travel ball so I could keep them straight between OBR, NFHS, TCS, USSSA, etc. Thankfully, I no longer had to deal with LL rules because they are very different than all the others...

That's way too much about baseball. Back to the regular scheduled programming - Discuss Fastpitch.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Well SoCal_dad,

Your last post pretty much shows the arrogance and condescension that cause so many people to believe all people in SoCal made of the same “stuff”. Fortunately, I know many fine people from that part of the country who aren’t that way, but resent those who give such a poor face to a great area.

FWIW, for baseball, LLI uses modified OBR, always has, and likely always will. I don’t know what they use for SB, but my assumption is that they use some form of ASA rules. So don’t get all high hat about how different LLI is.

Finally, I was discussing FPSB. The only reason I mention baseball is because that’s where my experience lies, so its my only reference.

I can see why I received so many PMs about SoCal dad.

 

[Crabby_Bob]

...

FWIW, for baseball, LLI uses modified OBR, always has, and likely always will. I don’t know what they use for SB, but my assumption is that they use some form of ASA rules. So don’t get all high hat about how different LLI is.

...

LL softball uses modified LL baseball rules as a starting point.

 

[Scorekeeper]

LL softball uses modified LL baseball rules as a starting point.

That’s why I said my ASSUMTION was that they used some form of ASA rules. How did you find out that’s what they did. It seems kinda foolish to me on the face of it, but then again, to me its always foolish to re-invent the wheel.

I see ASA began in 1933 and LLI softball in 1974, and that makes it even more foolish to me that they’d use OBR as a base rule set. But then again, there’s no tellin’ what folks will do.

But you brought up a great question that might be interesting to have answered. I’ll drop a line to LLI to see if I can get some kind of answer. Thanx for information!

 

[MTR]

That’s why I said my ASSUMTION was that they used some form of ASA rules. How did you find out that’s what they did. It seems kinda foolish to me on the face of it, but then again, to me its always foolish to re-invent the wheel.

I see ASA began in 1933 and LLI softball in 1974, and that makes it even more foolish to me that they’d use OBR as a base rule set. But then again, there’s no tellin’ what folks will do.

But you brought up a great question that might be interesting to have answered. I’ll drop a line to LLI to see if I can get some kind of answer. Thanx for information!

IMO, LL softball was a direct response to the court ruling which forced LL to accept females. Most likely would be denied, but if you check the time line, it seem obvious. This way they are giving the females an alternative and keeping them off the baseball fields and at the same time, be able to keep that family's money in one source. Remember, even in the mid-20th century, baseball was a manly sport and many scoffed at some females even attending and discussing the game, let alone playing it. Yes, I know there was a women's ball league in the '40s, but even that started as softball and was played like softball until after 1945.

Like much of HS softball at the onset, LL coaches only knew baseball and ran their softball teams that way, so it was just natural to them that the rules follow suit. It has just taken a while for the softball-only people to get involved and restructure the program and rules to more resemble the game of other organizations.

 

[Scorekeeper]

IMO, LL softball was a direct response to the court ruling which forced LL to accept females. Most likely would be denied, but if you check the time line, it seem obvious. This way they are giving the females an alternative and keeping them off the baseball fields and at the same time, be able to keep that family's money in one source. Remember, even in the mid-20th century, baseball was a manly sport and many scoffed at some females even attending and discussing the game, let alone playing it. Yes, I know there was a women's ball league in the '40s, but even that started as softball and was played like softball until after 1945.

There’s no doubt in my mind that in the startup of the LLI SB program, there were a lot of mistakes made, and a lot of overflowing testosterone as well. Its not completely gone, but at least the kids today have a lot less of the garbage to deal with than the previous generation, and I hope the next one has even less.

Like much of HS softball at the onset, LL coaches only knew baseball and ran their softball teams that way, so it was just natural to them that the rules follow suit. It has just taken a while for the softball-only people to get involved and restructure the program and rules to more resemble the game of other organizations.

I’m not so sure its as easy to judge HS SB as it is LLI SB. Take a look at the following link and look at Softball-Individual-Pitching-Most Strikeouts-Consecutive-Game. Sin Delores Frieze set the record in 1939, I’m not sure there’s anyone around that can say what was really taking place back then. If you've never seen the HS SB records, prepare yourself!


But I’m sure it wasn’t a lot of fun for the girls anywhere or at any time for them in any area of sports. Again, I’m very glad we’ve come as far as we have, and hope things get better.

 

[MTR]

I’m not so sure its as easy to judge HS SB as it is LLI SB. Take a look at the following link and look at Softball-Individual-Pitching-Most Strikeouts-Consecutive-Game. Sin Delores Frieze set the record in 1939, I’m not sure there’s anyone around that can say what was really taking place back then. If you've never seen the HS SB records, prepare yourself!


But I’m sure it wasn’t a lot of fun for the girls anywhere or at any time for them in any area of sports. Again, I’m very glad we’ve come as far as we have, and hope things get better.

I couldn't care less about HS records as they are relatively meaningless to anyone not on the list or striving to be on the list. My point was that in many HS as in early LL, there were no "softball coaches" just standing around waiting for the opportunity to coach girls softball.

In many cases in HS(and we are talking decades ago), coaches were required to be teachers or have been employed by the school district. The mean that many ended up with PhysEd coaches who knew baseball, not softball. Same in LL. Many local LL organization are somewhat of a close-knit group and again, did not really include a group of softball coaches sitting around waiting to coach softball.

It has gotten much better, but as long as LL handles softball as "baseball for girls" there will always be a noticeable difference between their game and that of the rest of the organizations

 

[Scorekeeper]

I couldn't care less about HS records as they are relatively meaningless to anyone not on the list or striving to be on the list. My point was that in many HS as in early LL, there were no "softball coaches" just standing around waiting for the opportunity to coach girls softball.

My point about posting the link to NFHS SB records, was to show HS SB has been around since at least 1939. That doesn’t refute what you said at all, but it does kind of show that comparing a program that began as early as 1939 with one that began in 1974 isn’t really fair to either one. Your statement would certainly have been true for HSSB, but while it would have been true to at least some degree in the ‘70’s, its much more likely that there would have been a lot more experienced coaches out there.

In many cases in HS(and we are talking decades ago), coaches were required to be teachers or have been employed by the school district. The mean that many ended up with PhysEd coaches who knew baseball, not softball. Same in LL. Many local LL organization are somewhat of a close-knit group and again, did not really include a group of softball coaches sitting around waiting to coach softball.

What makes you believe there aren’t still many schools that have the same requirements? Most of the schools around here require the HC to be either a teacher or an administrator of some school district. As for LLI organizations, that’s probably correct, but the same can be said for baseball as well. It mighty rare to have coaches in LLI, or at any of the lower rec levels that aren’t simply parents doing it while their child is playing. Its not until you get to the travel/tournament venues where the coaches get paid that you’ll find the better coaches in any sport.

It has gotten much better, but as long as LL handles softball as "baseball for girls" there will always be a noticeable difference between their game and that of the rest of the organizations

Well, I certainly can’t and won’t argue that there are differences between LLI SB and all others. But to me it makes no more difference than it does for baseball. Its recreational only, and not intended to be D1 caliber SB. LLI is likely the main source for players because they have to start someplace. Its not very often you’ll find an 8YO player ready to face Jennie Finch, so where do they learn the basics? Does every “good” SB player start off playing tournaments and traveling all over the place?

My point is, LLI SB doesn’t have to be anything other than what it is, a place for kids to learn the basics of playing a sport many millions love.