Rose olored Glasses and The Elephant in the Room

[jbooth]

Holy crap Booth! Evidence!

What say you?

I'll answer you and Howe here.

That torque happens later than you guys believe. You say it is immediate. I say it happens as part of the throwing action.

Epstein, I believe, calls the universal launch point a position just a bit before this;

So, a few things;

1. He says "quickly flattening out his hands as he launches his swing. That would mean later than you say.

2. I don't think Epstein is much of a bio-mechanist.

3. The flattening of the hands is done as part of the throw. Which Bonds has started right about here. (Picture above.) And, I have said many times, that there is some supination and turning of the wrists along with the throw, which is mainly ulnar deviation. And, all the wrist/forearm action happens after the back elbow drops.

The throw is starting at about the time of the frame shown above. The wrists do their thing from this point on. Ulnar deviation mostly, the wrists turn up pretty much on their own unless you swing like a wood chopper.

 

[Howe]

I'll answer you and Howe here.

That torque happens later than you guys believe. You say it is immediate. I say it happens as part of the throwing action.

Epstein, I believe, calls the universal launch point a position just a bit before this;

So, a few things;

1. He says "quickly flattening out his hands as he launches his swing. That would mean later than you say.

2. I don't think Epstein is much of a bio-mechanist.

3. The flattening of the hands is done as part of the throw. Which Bonds has started right about here. (Picture above.) And, I have said many times, that there is some supination and turning of the wrists along with the throw, which is mainly ulnar deviation. And, all the wrist/forearm action happens after the back elbow drops.

The throw is starting at about the time of the frame shown above. The wrists do their thing from this point on. Ulnar deviation mostly, the wrists turn up pretty much on their own unless you swing like a wood chopper.

The illustrations:

The words:

 

[Howe]

jb,
I understand you wanted to show the launch position, but Bonds being a 2 plane swinger and all, has already begun loading the barrel by this point and he's still in the process of getting the smart end where it needs to go before the throw.

The reason why some prefer the 2 plane swing, is because it affords them a running start with the barrel load?

Showing a still frame of the launch position is an incomplete equation.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The illustrations:

The words:

Epstein couldn't be more clear ..... "Another torque is the result of the hitter quickly flattening out his hands as he launches his swing."

 

[RayR]

Your misunderstanding is quite evident.

You don't keep your elbow high - it goes where it needs to go based on pitch location and how the hands/wrists/forearms function.

And it is a major fundamental flaw since there is not a MLB player that has his front arm collapse the way yours does...

Your opinion.

IMO. Your's doesn't pass the test. You never throw the barrel, you whirl it.



It collapses after contact, because that is my way of keeping the barrel path flat. When I keep the elbow high, I hit the ball upward too much. That is a minor flaw if you want to say that. It isn't a major fundamental flaw.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Hal - say something on this thread to close it down!!!!!!!

;-)

 

[jbooth]

Stand straight up, hold your bottom hand perp to the ground. Your bottom hand is 90 degrees to your shoulders. Without doing anything to your hand, move your shoulders so you can get your hand flat. Make sure you have your medic alert chain around your neck first... LOL only kidding

That isn't anything like a swing. I stated how to do it like a swing, and you can almost get the palm horizontal. Not completely. I've said many times, that there is SOME supination, LATE, but it is NOT an early movement, nor and early power source.

 

[NoonTime]

IMO, weathervaning is not an absolute, whereas flat palm hitting is.

If you watch this video below, and you only saw the swing on the right, you could make the case that hitters weathervane early. But the truth is, the hands dictate how/when the lead elbow works up. Being an Epstein guy early on, I didn't understand this at first, and used to have my son tilt/weathervane early on every pitch. The concept of working the elbow up is important, but getting the hands into position and flat, trumps all.

Full clip for those interested:

 

[jbooth]

IMO, weathervaning is not an absolute, whereas flat palm hitting is.

If you watch this video below, and you only saw the swing on the right, you could make the case that hitters weathervane early. But the truth is, the hands dictate how/when the lead elbow works up. Being an Epstein guy early on, I didn't understand this at first, and used to have my son tilt/weathervane early on every pitch. The concept of working the elbow up is important, but getting the hands into position and flat, trumps all.

I think you misunderstand what Epstein means by weathervane. He just means that the forearms, wrists and the bat form the look of a weathervane, and that they move as a unit as a weathervane does when the wind blows on it.

IOW, the angles don't change, or break down. Miggy is weathervaning in both swings above.

 

[jbooth]

The illustrations:

The words:

But, he believes in weathervaning. The arrows are showing the direction of force, but the force comes through the arms. The wrists aren't supposed to break the weathervane angles, according to his beliefs.

The illustration shows shoulder and elbow movement causing the change in wrist angle.

Sure there is force going in the direction of the arrows, but he doesn't advocate twisting the wrists at that point, or pulling back with the top hand. I asked him that in person, and he said there is no pull back with the top hand. It's arm movement.