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Questionable IF fly.

Sep 26, 2011
24
3
First pool play game of the day. We are the home team and following a couple miscues our girls are down 2 runs and bases are loaded now outs.

Flare to the SS (not a line drive and pop up). SS gets to it and makes the catch(or so we thought when home ump signals out without an infield fly call). SS trips over the grass lip and ball comes loose.

R1 takes off for home, LF throws to 3rd beating R2, 3rd fires to 2nd and beats R3 on the force.

Now everyone is confused. After about 5mins umps decide it should’ve been IFF, no catch, force was off at 3rd, no tag was made at 3rd or 2nd.

1 run scores, 1 out on the IFF, placed runners on 3rd and 2nd.


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May 29, 2015
1,990
113
Doesn’t sound so questionable to me ... the only thing would be the catch/no catch, but as you described it, that doesn’t even matter.

Just not sure why it took that long to sort it out since many of the “answers” to the “questions” didn’t really matter.

IFF (darn auto correct) applies even if the umpires fail to signal it. Batter is out whether or not the ball is caught.

The way you describe it, the runners didn’t leave their bases till the ball was caught/dropped, so no problems there.

There is no force on any runner.

No runners were tagged.

Pretty easy.
 
Last edited:

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
First pool play game of the day. We are the home team and following a couple miscues our girls are down 2 runs and bases are loaded now outs.

Flare to the SS (not a line drive and pop up). SS gets to it and makes the catch(or so we thought when home ump signals out without an infield fly call). SS trips over the grass lip and ball comes loose.
Since the umpire ruled the out, that should never change. This isn't the NFL where one must "complete" the catch.

R1 takes off for home, LF throws to 3rd beating R2, 3rd fires to 2nd and beats R3 on the force.

Now everyone is confused. After about 5mins umps decide it should’ve been IFF, no catch, force was off at 3rd, no tag was made at 3rd or 2nd.

1 run scores, 1 out on the IFF, placed runners on 3rd and 2nd.
Since they ruled this an IF (it's only two words), the catch/no catch becomes irrelevant. Wasn't there to see it, so I don't know if the umpire's compromise ruling was appropriate. From the description of the play I probably would have left the bases loaded
 
Jan 27, 2019
141
28
I think the umpires got the call right IF the ball was hit an appreciable height and could be caught with reasonable effort (was not there so I cannot know those, umpire's judgment).

I do not see any rationale that keeps the R1 from scoring from third. And you have two runners who legally advanced from first and second. If the ruling is IF I believe they definitely got this one right. A little frustrating when it isn't called immediately but we want to get the right call.

@MTR, usually right on board with you, am interested in your reasoning on leaving the bases loaded.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
As previously noted, wasn't there to see the action or reactions of the runner. IMO, without the IF ruled and a subsequent out call and then the reversal, the runners felt compelled to run and the defense was equally confused and still playing for the force outs. Or not aware of the reversal thinking the runners left early.

But purely supposition just trying to compensate for the umpire error. Maybe if I saw it I would rule otherwise.
 
Jun 7, 2019
156
28
Since the umpire ruled the out, that should never change. This isn't the NFL where one must "complete" the catch.
This is a question - not a challenge. I got a DP/Flex lineup change wrong yesterday in a semi-final. Just trying to continue to learn.

I am under the impression that the fielder DOES have to hold the ball long enough to prove possession, and that if she drops it because she fell to the ground that we do not have a catch.

This is all I could find on it now.

DEFINITIONS -CATCH/NO CATCH

A.1. To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary.

B. It is not a catch:
1. If a Fielder, while gaining control, collides with another player, umpire or fence, or "falls to the ground and drops the ball as a result of" the collision or "falling to the ground."

Note: Quotation marks are mine to separate collision vs fall for emphasis.

My learning something new yesterday had no effect on the outcome of the game. But if there's something to be learned here, better to learn it before it happens.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
This is a question - not a challenge. I got a DP/Flex lineup change wrong yesterday in a semi-final. Just trying to continue to learn.

I am under the impression that the fielder DOES have to hold the ball long enough to prove possession, and that if she drops it because she fell to the ground that we do not have a catch.

This is all I could find on it now.

DEFINITIONS -CATCH/NO CATCH

A.1. To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary.

B. It is not a catch:
1. If a Fielder, while gaining control, collides with another player, umpire or fence, or "falls to the ground and drops the ball as a result of" the collision or "falling to the ground."

Note: Quotation marks are mine to separate collision vs fall for emphasis.

My learning something new yesterday had no effect on the outcome of the game. But if there's something to be learned here, better to learn it before it happens.
How long would that be? One second, five seconds? One step, two steps, ten steps? I'm sure you know there is nothing in the book setting any restrictions other than that the umpire believes there was possession or a voluntary release. Please note in "B.1" of your quote that is notes "while gaining control" Since the umpire made the out call, I have to assume s/he determined possession prior to the fall. Not being able to see it, we cannot render judgment.

What if the SS got the ball in the glove and immediately flipped it in the direction, but not in flight all the way, of another fielder while tripping? Even though the SS didn't clearly show possession, that would be a voluntary release and by rule must be ruled a catch though it may not have even been close.

IMO, many of today's younger umpires carry some of the written rules to the extreme trying to force a rule onto a play.
 
May 29, 2015
1,990
113
The key on these things is that we did/can not see the play. I’m not sure why we get all worked up when somebody renders a judgment different than ours. I think most of us are fairly good about putting the caveats into our explanations. I know I try to explain the circumstance I am understanding and any “what if”. I try not to say an umpire was wrong (though sometimes you just have to) but try explain why/how the umpire may have seen that play that way.
Fact is, the catch/no catch doesn’t matter. The batter was out on the Infield Fly, even if it wasn’t called. The runners then advance at their own peril. They did not leave early and were not doubled up, so the catch/no catch is irrelevant.

Where I’m not understanding you MTR is in putting all the runners back. Infield Fly does not have to be called; all participants are expected to know the situation. I guess I am disagreeing that the chaos that ensues during an infield fly is a “correctable umpire error” that needs correcting by rewarding the defense and penalizing the offense. In my opinion, it should just stand.
 

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