Question: When do increases in speed taper off?

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Dec 12, 2012
1,668
0
On the bucket
Biscuit,
Me thinks you may have missed my point.

We should all agree that the max distance is 43' - right?
Stipulating that the max is 43', then we should also agree that the shorter distances (35' & 40') are a not an issue - again right?

However, I think most forget or don't realize that the angle of insonation is key. If you want a true reading you must be at a zero degree angle of insonation for the entire pitch. That is practically impossible for two reasons. 1) No one (or at least most for sake of this discussion) ever achieves a zero degree angle for any part of the pitch not to mention the entire distance. You would have to take a reading from the catchers glove. 2) No pitch travels on the same plane for the entire distance from release to catch.

Since zero would be obtained from the catcher's glove and pitches all move some from release to catch there isn't a viable method to get a true reading. Radar guns have somewhat of a correction system built in simply because the nature of a beam is to lose it's focus once emitted unless there is a secondary refocus system employed such as ultrasound imaging. Radar guns do not have a secondary focusing system, so the beam gets wider and wider without control the farther the beam travels from it's source (the gun). The wider the beam becomes the less of it is available to bounce back and return to the source. That equals diminishing accuracy. Beam width varies between manufacturers and models, so different guns will have varying accuracy rates.

Now in the real world the distances we are working with are so small that you will likely see repeatable readings between guns and methods. My point is that the readings most record come from the last half or even the last third of the pitch because they don't have a good enough angle to get the entire pitch at a point where they have a viable reading. Therefore, the distance does matters since the pitch begins to slow the moment it is released from the hand.

There should be some sort of a standard for recording pitching speeds. If that were the case, then we would have a system where we could compare apples to apples. The error rate or accuracy wouldn't really matter. Until that happens, you really can't compare Dad A's DD to Dad B's DD with any certainty.
 
Last edited:
Jun 24, 2013
427
0
I have 3 DD's that pitch:
the oldest one was:
10 -35 (11" ball) 35'
11 -38 -40'
12 -40 (12" ball) 40'
13 -48 - 43'
The middle one a.k.a "The Heater" (she is taller than her older sister but only 14 months behind her in age)
10 -53 (11" ball) 35' We had a time trying to find girls that wanted to catch her. Most wore batting gloves inside their mitt. Some of the coaches couldn't understand why the girls couldn't "Shake it off" when they got HBP.
11 -48 (12" ball) Yes she was disapointed her speed decreased! 40'
12 -55 - from 43' My big toe was disappointed when it got HBP.
The young one
6 - 25-28
7 - 30
8 - 33 (11" ball from 35ft)
We only started her pitching this young because she would follow her sisters around to their pitching lessons and she began mimicing their pitching motions. We didn't want her to learn bad habits and then have to spend time later "unlearing" her from those habits. We asked the PC and she said "Give her a ball and let's see what she can do!" After one pitch she said, "Nope it's not too young to start her..."
We haven't seen a plateau yet but I know one is coming..
 
Jan 23, 2009
102
16
From what I remember it went something like this...

10 - 38mph
11 - 45mph
12 - 50mph
13 - 55mph
14 - 58mph
15 - 59mph
17 - 60mph
19 - 61-62mph
 
Dec 7, 2011
2,368
38
Biscuit,
Me thinks you may have missed my point.

We should all agree that the max distance is 43' - right?
Stipulating that the max is 43', then we should also agree that the shorter distances (35' & 40') are a not an issue - again right?

However, I think most forget or don't realize that the angle of insonation is key. If you want a true reading you must be at a zero degree angle of insonation for the entire pitch. That is practically impossible for two reasons. 1) No one (or at least most for sake of this discussion) ever achieves a zero degree angle for any part of the pitch not to mention the entire distance. You would have to take a reading from the catchers glove. 2) No pitch travels on the same plane for the entire distance from release to catch.

Since zero would be obtained from the catcher's glove and pitches all move some from release to catch there isn't a viable method to get a true reading. Radar guns have somewhat of a correction system built in simply because the nature of a beam is to lose it's focus once emitted unless there is a secondary refocus system employed such as ultrasound imaging. Radar guns do not have a secondary focusing system, so the beam gets wider and wider without control the farther the beam travels from it's source (the gun). The wider the beam becomes the less of it is available to bounce back and return to the source. That equals diminishing accuracy. Beam width varies between manufacturers and models, so different guns will have varying accuracy rates.

Now in the real world the distances we are working with are so small that you will likely see repeatable readings between guns and methods. My point is that the readings most record come from the last half or even the last third of the pitch because they don't have a good enough angle to get the entire pitch at a point where they have a viable reading. Therefore, the distance does matters since the pitch begins to slow the moment it is released from the hand.

There should be some sort of a standard for recording pitching speeds. If that were the case, then we would have a system where we could compare apples to apples. The error rate or accuracy wouldn't really matter. Until that happens, you really can't compare Dad A's DD to Dad B's DD with any certainty.

Cuz -

Tryin to follow ya here but I think ya need to do a little more concepts of radar reading:

"Insonation" ???? - this is an ultrasound term....? Even though I guess the concept can be similar....

Anywayz - Are you trying to redefine the more commonly known error factor of radar called "Cosine Error"?

In the case of cosine error the angular difference between shooting radar over 35 to 43 feet is maybe a degree or two which in turn will only cause a hundredth of a mph error of speed. Which can you even get a speed gun that goes to the hundredths of an mph???

Remember again that as long as you capture the entire path of the ball it will only get marginally slower as it approaches the catchers glove. As it approaches the catchers glove then the cosine error gets larger BUT that would only falsely slow the ball down even further (not affecting the fastest just-released speed reading).

Then I am pretty sure your mention of “focus” only has to do with signal strength – not signal accuracy. This would be relative to how far you can stand away from the pitch and still get a strong enough signal to read.

You state : “My point is that the readings most record come from the last half or even the last third of the pitch because they don't have a good enough angle to get the entire pitch at a point where they have a viable reading.” I am sorry but this doesn’t even make sense in the radar world. Any “angle” away from the speed gun is “bad” and produces cosine error.

(I used to design radar jammers for military use - I still maintain some knowledge base here.....)
 
Dec 12, 2012
1,668
0
On the bucket
Biscuit - Good call. I had a discussion with a radar gun manufacturer yesterday afternoon and realized that some of what I learned in medical physics wasn't correct or didn't apply when it comes to radar. Yes, I would say that cosign error is the same as angle of insonation. Same thing different language where a 60* = 50%, 90* = 0% (or no signal) and 0* = 100% of velocity.

Still think that the distance we use (43' max) is so small that repeatable readings are common. I just don't think we capture the entire path of the ball only a portion. And from the mad skills of the people I see using radar, it would be the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the pitch. Some of that error is just due to poor skill. I am sure you would do much better at capturing a larger portion of the pitch.

BTW, thanks for helping our armed services!
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
I think most forget or don't realize that the angle of insonation is key. If you want a true reading you must be at a zero degree angle of insonation for the entire pitch. That is practically impossible for two reasons. 1) No one (or at least most for sake of this discussion) ever achieves a zero degree angle for any part of the pitch not to mention the entire distance. You would have to take a reading from the catchers glove. 2) No pitch travels on the same plane for the entire distance from release to catch.

Did anyone else read this and immediately think of Sheldon from "Big Bang Theory"?......
 
Jul 26, 2010
3,554
0
Most radar guns are taking readings very quickly, every thousandths or hundredths of a second, and they report the highest speed. This is true of the jugs guns and the pocket radar. Some of the higher end guns will let you see the speed curve so you can chart the pitch across the duration of the pitch.

Softballs are high drag and slow down quickly. Some radars, like the popular glove radar, can only read a few feet in front of them. If you compare the readings from a glove radar with a gun on the same pitch, you will see quite a deviation of velocity on the readings. For instance, when my DD is throwing 59 on the gun, she's showing up as 54 on the glove radar. The rev-fire reports in between at 56 (the rev fire uses timing, not radar). This is all on the exact same pitch, with all three devices used at once.

I've never operated a radar gun that simply took a 1 time snapshot.

-W
 

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