Pitchers hips?

[jryan15]

I think they are polar opposites. The one of the softball pitcher is INTERNAL ROTATION... the one with the hitter is EXTERNAL ROTATION.

If you see rear leg IR in one and rear leg ER in the other, we have zero common ground.

I don't know how to respond to this. It's quite broad-reaching of you to hypothesize what my research has/hasn't been... but rest-assured, I know about Mr. Xie. What we do against the ground and how we do it is critical... pretty sure I've taken that stand about a million times. I think you'll find that their are some pretty similar items in my posts... like striking patterns, big-toe kinematics, "quiet landings". I might not trademark them... but at some point, I need to stop talking about Lebron's curled toes and get to what people came here for... PITCHING. That's not a hit on you... just a decision I made. Sorry if I sold you short.

There is a level of depth behind the gimmick side of Chong's research, but if you dont' have time or interest in it, then so be it. I still recommend it to others. It will not replace what you advocate, but for some, it will supplement it a great deal.

No, J. This thread was about something completely different:

Since then... it's become about overhand throwing, hitting, and glute activation. The dude simply wanted to know:

If failure to turn or snap the hips negatively impacts the rise? In my opinion, the hips need to be stabilized during brush contact... in order to properly articulate the spin on this pitch.

If turning the hips could cause damage to the shoulder? Mr. Pauly already responded to the health concerns... as did many other fine posters.

On a side note... the poster mentioned the notion that the hip determined spin/velocity. My answer to that is: INDIRECTLY. They can influence speed - both positively and negatively... and they can change the position of the hand on the ball, both positively and negatively.

A few days ago the thread was discussing hip snap, and I posted my thoughts on the subject. While I still see the relevance of my posts on the subject, I guess I'll bow out for the time being.

 

[javasource]

If you see rear leg IR in one and rear leg ER in the other, we have zero common ground.

You are trying to match a VISUAL observation... to a theory you have regarding hip movement... as I have gathered. Your visual observation is that the rear leg internally rotates... CAUSING hip movement. Correct me if I am wrong here...

What I am saying is that the articulation of the HIP... is NOT caused by internal rotation of the thigh in hitting. You are saying it is...

In hitting, there is a coil and then an uncoil... I really hope we agree on this, at least...

The coil is INTERNAL ROTATION of the thigh... BECAUSE THIS IS A CLOSED CHAIN MOVEMENT.
The UNcoil is EXTERNAL ROTATION of the thigh... BECAUSE THIS IS A CLOSED CHAIN MOVEMENT.

Stand on your right leg and coil your torso around your hip clockwise... providing your foot doesn't move, you'll immediately recognize your thigh is internally rotating. Uncoil... and you'll notice that what moves your hip is E/R... not I/R.

Therefore, the force acting on the hip to MOVE IT.. is EXTERNAL ROTATION.

You may see internal rotation, J... but you're missing the force that caused it. This is the problem, at times with visual theories.

A pitcher's rear leg is not in a closed chain... it's gliding in an open chain. THEREFORE... it's simply Internal Rotation.

Some people get this... others don't. Not criticizing you here... just not going to spend more time talking about and drawing similarities on two articulations that are created in two different ways.

 

[Ken B]

Interesting direction this thread took.

Definitely! One of my favorite recent threads and one of the most challenging in a while. Thanks to Jack for starting it, and to Jason, Butter, Strike3, Pauly and JS for giving me weeks worth of stuff to ponder and try. I plan to see if I can replicate the "move" that Ueno executes and that Jason is so passionate about. Fun stuff!

 

[knightsb]

 

[Buttermaker]

Great points Ken (as always) and yes, in full motion. I understand what you are saying about stepping into the pitch vs back foot being dragged but neither is the case IMO. It is the stride foot that is key to "torque against". That may not be the correct verbage but drive hard (linear energy) and stick it ( stride foot plant) and then the hip/core torques against the stick (rotational energy) which pulls the shoulder, arm, fingers, and ball.

You can try it step style at first and then drive and drag style. Both require the stick of the stride foot to torque against if you will. Is this voluntary or on purpose? Myself as well as the 2 pitchers I describes do it on purpose. Is that right, depends on who you ask. But, I do know absolutely for sure, the velocity AND accuracy increases when they do. And of course now, they don't focus on it as it is muscle memory so if I asked them (and I will the next few days) if they notice the focus on making it happen. My guess (just a guess) is at this point it is just part of the routine.

Cat is a great example above BUT you could argue both ways IMO. That is why I say to try yourself and then ask a pitcher to try it. I am 3 of for 3 in increased velocity and accuracy. Myself, the 9th grader, and the 10 year old.

The accuracy - which I didn't talk about much is because the hip snap leads the arm which puts the hip out in front (45 degrees give or take) and causes the arm (inside forearm/elbow) to go into it and create excellent brush.

I will just say that Rick posted this, I tried it briefly awhile back, went back to focusing most of my time on drive mechanics. A couple months ago, I re-read Ricks points, after watching a pitcher that was smaller than a bucket of water throw flames. She has one thing that stood out and that was she reminded me so much of CAT (so your video is right on). I watched her and watched her and said she looked just like Cat especially in the hip area. So I reread and rewatched all of Ricks info on this and then applied it. BOOM.

Now to fix how long I carry my posts on for............

Great posts on hip torque! I feel like the torque has to occur before the stride foot lands. Rick, do you have a position on this? Or can someone point me to where Rick may have talked about the timing? Not saying anyone is wrong - just feel like it has to happen before stride foot lands. I do totally agree that the stride foot landing locks in the hips position and converts the energy much quicker.

Watching the belt buckle on Ueno - it is turning before the front foot lands

 

[coach james]

It would appear the tech hitting forum has spilled over into this thread.

 

[Buttermaker]

LOL! If Rick just kept hip snap to himself...just A$$/BB for pitching. The A$$ and Belly button feeling like they are both turning back to 2B due to the core torque. The A$$ gets the hip in the way of the arm and BB keeps the shoulders from rotating forward into release to keep the arm on track for brush.

 

[pumpkinbear]

It would appear the tech hitting forum has spilled over into this thread.

IMO, this discussion is orders of magnitude more civil than what I've seen in the tech hitting forum.

Heck, I've seen some pretty nasty poop-flinging on this forum. Thankfully, not recently.

If I ever had a pitching idea worth discussing here, I'd be thrilled to have someone like javasource providing constructive feedback.

FWIW, javasource (and Boardmember before him) took a lot more (often non-constructive) flak in explaining IR to novice bucket dads like me.

It's incredibly difficult to effectively communicate a physical concept such as IR (or hyper arch). Few can do it. Despite jryan15's efforts, I don't understand it well enough to have an opinion on it. But I hope he continues his efforts to both understand and communicate it better.

Boardmember and javasource demonstrated perseverance and skill in debunking conventional wisdom about pitching mechanics and providing pitchers/parents with the tools to improve. Both of my pitching dds have benefited greatly from their efforts.

If hyper arch is a real thing, I hope jyran15 keeps up the good fight to help the rest of us understand it. But I imagine he'll have to answer a lot of questions to get there.

 

[coach james]

It was a joke.... all the back and forth reminded me of the Tech Hitting Forum.
I think Mike knows me well enough by now to not be offended! Hell, I've been buying what hes been selling for years!

 

[pumpkinbear]

I've been buying what hes been selling for years!

It took until pg 8 of the Drive Mechanics thread (the 2 Step video) before I became a Total Suckup Javasource Sycophant Fanboi.