Palm Up Curve

[Hillhouse]

Buttermaker I am sometimes guilty of this. I have found in some cases that throwing a new pitch into the sequence does a few things: Motivates them to work harder and give self esteem if they are improving. But also helps them to understand why the tedious little things become so important. Without doing A, B and C... you can't do Z. Now, would I teach a 9 year old a rise? Probably not. But, it's a judgement call. I'm talking about the legit pitches, not the screw rise... which is nothing more than a "screwed up rise". LOL.

Bill

 

[Ken B]

Hillhouse,
I used your elbow whip cue with a kid last night who was getting weak action on her drop. I could see the wheels turning in her head as she threw the next few. Along with some yups and nopes, she had it spinning much better in a few pitches.

I used the same cue for myself when I was taking the video for the first clips in this thread. At first I was getting a true spin, but little movement. Snapping/whipping more made the difference. Thank you!

 

[Hillhouse]

Whipping will correct the spin, no question. Then it's all about timing for the ball movement. Gotta have that right release point or it becomes the dreaded "fastball".

Bill

 

[javasource]

Bill,

Rick, Rich, and myself were talking the other day about the order in which one instructs mechanics... i.e. fastball, then drop, change, etc.

In your experiences, what are your thoughts on the subject. Have you ever tought a rise ball as a first pitch? Meaning have you or any of your associates... or any of the kids that you've worked with... learned a Rise first... and if so how did it turn out for them? Meaning... how did they progress throughout the years?

It may just be one case... but one of the better female spinners is often viewed as Cat... and it's rumored that she started with a bullet spin fastball.

Just curious on your thoughts... and if you ever varied from your own script while teaching these girls over the years.

Best, Mike

 

[Buttermaker]

Buttermaker I am sometimes guilty of this. I have found in some cases that throwing a new pitch into the sequence does a few things: Motivates them to work harder and give self esteem if they are improving. But also helps them to understand why the tedious little things become so important. Without doing A, B and C... you can't do Z. Now, would I teach a 9 year old a rise? Probably not. But, it's a judgement call. I'm talking about the legit pitches, not the screw rise... which is nothing more than a "screwed up rise". LOL.

Bill

Bill, I am talking specifically about a pitcher that has a medium speed "fastball" that doesn't locate well, a change up that is so so and drop that is ehh. Then they come in and say they are working on a screwball. Or a curve. Or a rise. And trust me - there are a lot of them out there.

I am all for playing around with grips to see what will garner more movement, but some P coaches out there don't have a frigging clue how to just teach a pitcher some decent mechanics...or teach them out of decent mechanics...

 

[Rocketech1]

Bill,

Rick, Rich, and myself were talking the other day about the order in which one instructs mechanics... i.e. fastball, then drop, change, etc.

In your experiences, what are your thoughts on the subject. Have you ever tought a rise ball as a first pitch? Meaning have you or any of your associates... or any of the kids that you've worked with... learned a Rise first... and if so how did it turn out for them? Meaning... how did they progress throughout the years?

It may just be one case... but one of the better female spinners is often viewed as Cat... and it's rumored that she started with a bullet spin fastball.

Just curious on your thoughts... and if you ever varied from your own script while teaching these girls over the years.

Best, Mike

There is a very successful pitching instructor here in Simi Valley CA, Kat Ayala, that teaches a bullet spin fastball as the first pitch learned. Some of the top pitchers in SoCal have used her. My best guess is that her students are successful because in order to throw a bullet spin fastball you pretty much have to be using internal rotation mechanics.

 

[mothgirl]

The way she squeezes her gluteus at release and gets great FSR really stands out to me. Another thing that stands out a bit to me is the lack of brush? Maybe im seeing it wrong (i know that has been said before) I've read this entire thread, I don't remember if the squeezing glutes thing has been said, sorry if its a repeat but I notice it every time i watch the vid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill,

Rick, Rich, and myself were talking the other day about the order in which one instructs mechanics... i.e. fastball, then drop, change, etc.

In your experiences, what are your thoughts on the subject. Have you ever tought a rise ball as a first pitch? Meaning have you or any of your associates... or any of the kids that you've worked with... learned a Rise first... and if so how did it turn out for them? Meaning... how did they progress throughout the years?

It may just be one case... but one of the better female spinners is often viewed as Cat... and it's rumored that she started with a bullet spin fastball.

Just curious on your thoughts... and if you ever varied from your own script while teaching these girls over the years.

Best, Mike

Milli Vanilli, I.E Mike....

First, I tell people straight up that "Fastball" is the F word. I don't want to hear it or see it. I cannot fathom throwing a pitch straight on purpose.

No, I've never taught a riseball as a first pitch, it's always drop ball. Get the ball to move. With correct spin and release point it's not that hard. It's kids who over throw that have trouble with it.

Cat also says she didn't become the pitcher she is until she learned from Bobby Smith, one of the best PC's in the country and still competes in the over 60 division of Nationals. So, I'm fairly sure she abandoned that bullet spin when she got to him.

Lets look at bullet spin for a second, what causes it? It's a turn of the wrist (and subsequently fingers) at release, right? This is exactly why an overhand pitcher throws his curveball significantly slower than his fastball. Because the twist of the wrist breaks the kinetic chain of elbow, wrist and fingers snapping or whipping in order. How does this make sense to anyone? Not to mention it puts a bullseye on the ball for the batter to hit. In a perfect world, which we don't live in, I want my drop spinning forward and rise backward so the hitter has a hard time identifying it outta my hand. Bullet spin would contradict all we know about kinetics for speed and movement.

Once again, I have insomina... this time I'm flying Minneapolis to Amsterdam... last night I had it in San Antonio. I get angry when I can't sleep so pardon me if I post a few "rants".

Bill

 

[javasource]

Appreciate the response, Bill. Thanks.

I don't know if I agree with the speed thing, though. Some of the worst spinners in college softball have the absolute highest speeds. With the exception of Tincher... I don't know if I've seen a female pitcher that throws 70+ ever do so with anything other than bullet. Yukiko's spin is junk... Monica is by no means a good spinner, Dallas... well, I'll try to remain positive...

I see bullet spin resulting from the hand getting inside the ball... and releasing off of this position. It's in this case, that I believe the hand is in a pretty good kinetic position to transfer energy. When I see good drop ball pitchers... and I speak of few... I see it being slightly less speedy than what their "fastball" is. It's has more to do with them just trying to peel it... it actually has to do with the flexion removed from their wrist... which allows for the I/R to be sequenced (as you mentioned... and I absolutely agree with) so that the hand comes up the back of the ball... as opposed to slightly inside of it.

To this point... is where I see benefit in teaching a "tilted" dropball as a beginning pitch. Not bullet... but right in the middle of the two. In my opinion... the repetition of this spin is what allows the kids mechanics to evolve or develop the whip. From there... it's a simple cue to get the thumb forward sooner... and take the flexion out of the wrist.

I'll see your Milli and raise you a Vanilli...

 

[Hillhouse]

Young MC....

Ok, lets say some of the fastest pitchers have bullet spin, wouldn't that also explain why girls are hitting 25 HR's a year or more??? I'd say it's a major factor. Speed is nice to have but it's not the holy grail of pitching. We both know that.

I am a simple man and you are much smarter than me. But, I don't see how turning the wrist makes a ball go faster than letting it whip. If true, men's pitchers would be doing it too. And I know of NONE who do this. At least none good.

I am not sure if we're agreeing or not on the drop. I think a PC who tells someone to peel the drop by pulling up on the ball (I call it starting a lawn mower) is going to be slower by nature. There's no way to whip the elbow if they're pulling up so of course it's going to be slower than a "fastball". That is why I don't teach or believe in such a thing for a pitcher to do. The motion has to be the same, not pulling up for one, twisting the wrist for another, leaning, tilting, etc. How can someone be consistent when doing that? I was a pretty good pitcher and I know I couldn't. 99% of girls I work with who throw a fastball say they get a drop action to it a lot of times but don't know how they did it. They don't realize it's simple matter of release point. That's it. If she's got 6/12 spin, and a good release point, that ball is dropping!!! There's no need to step short, tilt or pull up and back for a "peel" action. This is the stuff that drives me insane about the pitching coach mafia. (No Java, you're not PCM!) They make things 10x harder than it needs to be with stupid drills, stupid actions, etc.

Here's the bottom line, if anyone says a girl cannot throw pitches like a man and needs to tilt, lean, step sideways, etc. then they weren't ready to throw breaking pitches. Sorry folks... fact of life right there. And as Donnie Baker (comedian) would say: I'll say it right to your face! Can you imagine a baseball pitcher stepping straight for a FB but, sideways for a curve? He'd get lit up!!! And as more and more men FP players get into the game and teach the art of picking pitches, as technology gets better and we see how to improve swings, as bats become more composite, balls become harder, the pitcher will lose his/her advantage quicker than you can say Grand Slam. Parents and coaches want things before their ready most of the time which is why there is so many bad spinning pitchers.

BTW Java, I disagree about Ueno. I saw her in 2004 in Manila at the Asian games. I said to my hosts if I had her for 1 month the USA would never beat Japan again. Turns out they didn't need me in 2008.

As Tupac said before his death.... well he said a lot of things. But the fact remains, people make this stuff too damn hard.

Bill