Over-Training vs. Proper Rest

[bucket pinata]

No you don't. You sit her. No kid is automatic, whether #1 being lights out (esp when drained) or #2 being shelled; many #2s are #1 quality. Your description of #2, that's for drama purposes in your story. If she is that bad, you should have developed #2 better. In any case, you still sit your daughter and take whatever happens. They're kids. The trophies don't matter, but they need their bodies for a lifetime. Perhaps this is why pitchers' parents should not coach the team.

I started to reply and point out your amazing feats of extra sensory perception may not be as sharp as you think they are. but then an old saying about pigs and mud came to mind so Ill just say you are right. I'm a total fool for even having those dilemmas and you can continue with self esteem intact. How's that.

 

[sluggers]

First, Thatdad, I never criticized what you do or don't do with your DD. I have no clue what you do with your DD. If you say she is safe, OK with me. At 18YOA, she is old enough to decide for herself. (I once advised DD#3--the basketball player--to sit out the rest of her junior season in college when the doctor told her she might seriously hurt her leg if she didn't stop playing. At 21YOA, she told me and the doctor to stuff it, and her team went on to win the NCAA D3 championship. If she had listened to me, it wouldn't have happened.)

I'm not getting through to you. So, here it is:

I (sluggers) was ignorant when my DD was pitching. At least there were no scientific studies about injuries when she was pitching. Everyone was saying how "natural" the underhand motion was and she wouldn't get hurt. They were wrong, and I was wrong to listen to them.​

But even I have never heard of seven games in a day, and would never have allowed MY OWN kid to do that. Now Sluggers kid, she has perfect mechanics so he can do whatever he wants with HIS KID. Are you getting my point yet?

If you haven't heard of that, you should get out more. My DD#1 did that in college, not playing TB. I had no say about whether she pitched or not--of course, I was so crazy I probably would have wanted her to pitch 10 games. (By the way, DD#1's pitching coach won nine games in one day, also in college.)

In any event, telling newbies that it is OK for their 12YOA DD to be eating Advil like candy was really, really dumb. You, as an experienced softball Daddy, should know better.

 

[ThatDad]

Man I wish I had the strength of Bucket Pinata. But I don't, I am sick of the arrogance from some people on this board.
Here's the original quote that seems to have some of your panties in such a wad.
" Also being sore and taking ibuprofen like candy seems pretty normal to me especially in-season."
For just a minute lets forget that I admitted this was a bit of a stretch, or the fact it had nothing to do with my post to the original poster's question. Is this really so out of your realm of reality? Even at twelve I would let my kid pitch 2-3 games a day
(mostly timed out-shortened) but she still got sore. I gave her anti-inflammatorys, and made sure she iced in the hotel and on the ride home on Sundays. All under the direction of the family doctor. So what's your deal? You don't think that's pretty normal around ball parks all over the country? For gods sake man you also just said its common for kids to play 7+ games. If your telling me many of those kids that are playing on those teams were'nt munchin ibuprofen or some such legal pain medicine....well then I say you all must know Dr. Feelgood as well.
What was your advice, 2 games a day and then rest? Or wait 1 game every other day? After reading all your studies do have it exactly figured out so if every kid does just what you tell them they will never be hurt? Is that what you are saying? Man, write a book it will sell more than Hal's.
"I'm not getting through to you. So, here it is"

No you're not! Because we are'nt talking about the same thing. I probably don't disagree about the numbers that much with you. Had you taken the time to understand what you read we wouldn't still be here. But I am sick of "experts" like you attacking and belittling other people on this site. I think you are a bully.
So I don't really care to get through to you, but could you answer my real initial question to the poster. Do you think its your right to tell other people how to raise and or coach and or teach their children. Even if by some God-given gift you know better, do you think that's your responsibility? Because that was my question to southpaw coach.

southpaw coach, I am sorry I initiated the hijacking of your thread. Not sure why I didn't see it coming but ahh well. For whats it worth most of the numbers thrown around by whats his name are probably pretty sound. Although I would point out there is a pretty wide margin in some of those numbers on pitch counts and what not. Use all the information you can get to help and improve your kid but leave the other folks kids up to them.
Again sorry.

 

[SoftballMom2]

Can we please stop personal attacks and the back and forth.....I was very interested in this thread because I have a 12u pitcher DD and we go back and forth on rest..she wants to keep working amd take no breaks and I must MAKE her take time off...usually the monday after a tourney and i try to hold her off one other day in the week. Id like her to take a couple weeks now but she is gearing up for fall tournaments so i may settle for a week. She is a dominant 12u & has pitched 14u and dominated but I am concerned about her arm for later in life. I agree other people should probably refrain from giving othpt people their opinion who havent asked for it but when people tell me my kid should rest or throw more or play up or play down or not throw so hard (yes they have said that lmao!!) i just smile and nod. I do what i think is best for my kid and pray it is the right thing. which is why i was interested in this topic

 

[ThatDad]

I am sorry SoftballMom2, but I am near the end of my run and am just flat sick of nodding my head and smiling at idiots and losers. I also don't care to be attacked especially over points I didn't make.
But anyway your DD sounds much like mine. One thing that has helped us along the way is previous X-rays, MRI's. I was a bit of worry wart and generally took my kid in anytime she had tinge of pain. Later in life however when she did have real issues the old X-rays and such were helpful to monitor any changes over the years. I know its kind of expensive but an X-Ray of the elbow, back, and shoulder could be very helpful later.

 

[sluggers]

Softballmom,

IMHO, assuming she has good mechanics, there is anything harmful about a kid pitching 2 games a day, and perhaps 5 over a tournament. However, she should take a couple of days off the following week.

Taking care of an arm isn't rocket science. The Mayo Clinic advises RICE: rest, ice, compression and elevation. If your DD's arm hurts after pitching, she should rest it for a couple of days. It is really pretty simple.

IMHO, two games on Saturday and three on Sunday would be fine, as long as she took Monday off, followed by some light throwing on Tuesday.

Later in life however when she did have real issues

So, ThatDad, your DD had physical problems related to pitching?

 

[slingnit]

I'm gonna have to agree with ThatDad. How is it there is one set number for anything that should apply to ALL kids? I've seen kids pitch 4-5 games a day weekend after weekend and be perfectly fine. And seen girls throw twice a week at practice/lessons and a game a day on the weekend and be complaining about pain on Monday. Ibuprofen is pretty common at the ball fields even for 11 and 12 year olds, period! Is that good, probably not, but that is reality. Heck, some kids are playing some type of sport year round, and multiple games of different sports on the same day, especially at small schools. And this has been going on since HS sports have began. SOME athletes age gracefully with ZERO issues and some are hunched over with bad knees, backs, and shoulders. That is exactly how ThatDad can say there is no magic number for how much a kid should or shouldn't throw. I am also very big on the parents deciding what is best for their kid. If the experts had all the answers there would no injuries due to overuse or bad mechanics. The truth is people get hurt some could have been prevented, some not. But having an "expert" make the rule is ridiculous because even they can't agree on what is too much. One says you throw too much, one says you don't throw enough, ugh! To be honest during the season my dd throws best when she does very little thru the week, maybe one day of throwing, then let it go on the weekend. Talk to most and they would say "well she should throw more, she would be a lot better pitcher". Thanks but I'll ask when I need your input. My DD WILL be playing at a top 10 D1 school when she graduates this year. I think our pitching schedule is sporadic at best, we usually take Nov-March off. This is unheard of by most but that is what works for her. If anyone else's dd needs to throw year round I do not condemn but not our way. She has thrown 5 games in a day and she has taken 2 weeks off mid season before. When rest is needed depends on how her body is feeling and responding to how much she is throwing. If there was a magic # everyone on this sight would have D1 bound dd's. But every bit of info on this site is opinion or personal experience. I doubt anyone has 200 girls that they worked with and monitored from day 1 of their fastpitch career to well into their adult life. Then studied their style, the number pitches thrown, the amount of rest, their injury statistics, etc... then compiled a journal in order to publish their findings! So unless you have done that you are like the rest of us opinion and personal experience. just my 2 cents

 

[Rocketech1]

I'm not really sure why some are getting all worked up about posters sharing their concern about overuse injuries and the use of painkillers especially at the younger age levels. Do the math. 7 inning game x 15 pitches per inning + 50 pregame warm-up pitches + minimum 4 pitches between 7 half innings equals 183 (105 + 50 + 28) pitches every game. You pitch in 5 games in a weekend and that's 915 pitches. This doesn't even include all of the other physical demands on the pitcher like pregame batting practice, short and long distance throwing, etc. Even the non-starters are doing their full warm-ups and also are warming up during the game so they are ready to come in on a moments notice.

Combine the above with pitching practices and/or lessons 3 or 4 times a week and our young daughters are likely pitching upwards of 1200 pitches a week, 4,800 a month, and close to 50,000 a year (includes two months off), 1/2 Million pitches in 10 years. These numbers are staggering and should be a little eye-opening for parents. Maybe some kids are exceptional and can withstand this kind of physical demand on the body day in and day out but I choose to put some limits on the amount of wear and tear that my DDs body can endure.

 

[chinamigarden]

I don't want to tell anyone how to raise their own kid. If you think your dd can handle 90 minute practices 5 times a week and multiple games on the weekend, then have at it. At one point when my dd was 12 I thought she was going to be one of those D1 pitchers, and her heart was 100% into the game then. But when she was 14 she was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes and now her day to day health is controlled by a meter and a pump that she wears on her belt pretty much 24/7. It changed our outlook and it drove home the point that life is never a guarantee and we should live each day. But before you (and by you I mean anyone reading this, not one particular person) think that this high level of activity is fine because she can handle it now, you should really talk to and listen to some of those who came before you, the pitchers who at 35 cannot raise there arm over their head, the catchers who needed a knee operation at 45. And if that's too far off to imagine, find the video of Kenzie Fowlers dad (I couldn't find it on youtube) where he talks about how overuse in her younger days has affected her health at the advanced age of 20. I am sure that when she was 12, 13 he thought his dd was a physical specimen who could handle all that was thrown at her, I am sure he scoffed at those who thought she worked too hard. He now bemoans the fact that she pitched entire tournaments when she was 10 and 12, but back then he probably searched for teams that would in fact ride her, you know for her own good in the future. Life goes on for a lot longer then 22, make sure your dd can enjoy her life not just now but when she is your age as well. A dedicated athlete can succeed without risking her long term health. Life life every day, but save some of it for the next day too.

stepping off soapbox now

 

[sluggers]

GOINGDEEP learned to baseball pitch, and if he can learn by practicing three days a week, it seems like any relatively athletic girl could do so as well.

If you want a study, here it is:

Female Collegiate Injuries

Here is part of the abstract:

"A web-based survey of 181 Division I (n 5 45), II (n 5 30), and III (n 5 54) collegiate softball pitchers was conducted. ... Among 131 reported injuries, 36 were acute, 92 chronic/overuse, and 3 unspecified. Of the total injuries, 80 were directly from pitching, with 33 shoulder-related and 16 related to the lower back. Among injured pitchers, 109 took nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, 140 used modalities, 11 received surgeries, and 95 saw additional specialists. Pitchers are at a risk for injury, with 72.8% of surveyed pitchers being injured during the 2001–02 year."​

These kids are getting pitched to death.