Open vs Closed Pitching Style

[lelwell]

Olympic Study

The Olympic study was done at the 1996 games. If you look at the whole report and read through it, it looks like open is a right handed pitcher hips parallel to the power line belly button towards third base. So closed is perpendiculiar to the power line or parallel with the pitching plate.

Larry

 

[Mark H]

I am confused by what constitutes an open vs. closed style. Is it strictly a hip issue? Is it about how much the hips open and/or when and how? Is it about how much the hips close and when? Or is it some combination?

Don't forget to add in the question of when and to what purpose and in what sequence. Here's some more clips for comment in addition to the Pauly link. Windmill

 

[Mark H]

Mark you've mentioned this several times and I'm not sure I completely follow you. I guess I just don't think a person's size has anything to do with whether or not they are using their body correctly. Yes, I believe there is RIGHT and WRONG. If this wasn't the case, then you wouldn't see the best pitchers in the world in the exact same positions at the key points in the motion. Male and female. And again, are these pitchers effective because of good pitching or bad hitting? The "best" pitchers in the WCWS last year had mechanics that made me cringe. I couldn't help asking myself, why do they pitch so differently from the best pitchers in the world, mechanically? Forget strategy and pitch selection... mechanically. They all do this crazy sideways step and yet you don't see the top pitchers actually doing that.

My point is, as we look at successful pitchers for confirmation in the arguments about what is right/efficient and what is wrong/inefficient, we need to keep in mind that a tall strong girl can have some inefficiencies and still be very effective just because she is big and strong. If a small girl is throwing the whey out of the ball then that should make her more interesting as an object of study. Same thing in bb pitching. I hate the way Valverde throws but he's a man mountain and can get away with inefficiencies. Wagner would be the opposite end of the spectrum. Same thing in hitting. I'd rather study the player of average or less size who hits the ball like the bigger stronger girl in terms of average and power.

 

[Darrick Brown]

We all know that there are alot of great pitchers with poor mechanics. The taller girls with long levers can get away with more mechanical flaws than most smaller lever girls. I think what needs to be addressed is safety. What is the safest way to pitch. I think the olympic study stated above has some very valuable info in it. Alot of kids are having lower back and shoulder problems and I think the study is right on especially with hip angle. I am not a fan of turning the push foot to open the hips. I have heard alot of coaches tell kids that you cant open soon enough. I believe in a straight foot and leg drive similiar to a sprinter. Think about it, if turning your foot allows you to push more then olympic sprinters would be doing it. The more you turn your foot, the harder it is to have a heel up push from the rubber. A heel up push foot is an absolute in the pitching motion to get max leg drive. I also believe in keeping the head above the drag knee throughout the pitching motion. This takes alot of stress off the back. The kick the cone drag style is so bad on lower back and shoulder joints. It's funny when I try to pitch that way my hip pops. A straighter drag allows your push leg to do the work. Alot of kids tend to let the stride foot take over and reach. I think you want the push leg to dominate. It is also a natural motion because when you take a step with your stride leg the push leg natural wants to move forward in a straight line. We all need to keep the mechanics natural and similiar to the way the body moves. Forcing the body in a unnatural position is not good. Arm Finish is another issue. Many want a finish straight up which is forced. Your arm naturallly wants to finish on an angle in the direction of the face. I tend to follow through further toward my left ear (Im right handed). But do I force it there? NO! That is where it naturally wants to go. The more natural you are the safer you are! As far as inner rotation of the wrist and fingers in my opinion it happens with a more natural finish. You wont see this as much with the pitchers who try to pull straight up. It's funny I read that post and began watching all of my pitchers and just about all of my kids have inner rotation. Anyways, hopefully I didnt ramble on too much!

Darrick Brown

 

[Hillhouse]

My point is, as we look at successful pitchers for confirmation in the arguments about what is right/efficient and what is wrong/inefficient, we need to keep in mind that a tall strong girl can have some inefficiencies and still be very effective just because she is big and strong. If a small girl is throwing the whey out of the ball then that should make her more interesting as an object of study. Same thing in bb pitching. I hate the way Valverde throws but he's a man mountain and can get away with inefficiencies. Wagner would be the opposite end of the spectrum. Same thing in hitting. I'd rather study the player of average or less size who hits the ball like the bigger stronger girl in terms of average and power.

Mark, I don't disagree entirely. But the same could be said for a stocky strong girl who can throw hard despite what she's doing.

This is the same argument that a lot of female pitching coaches use AGAINST male coaches... "he's a guy, he can do things that you cannot because he's stronger". Yet, you look at me and it becomes difficult to make that particular argument. Afterall, I'm pretty sure I can pitch faster than most people who are stronger than me. And yet, I'm not as fast as some people who are smaller than me.

The reality is, IMHO, correct mechanics need to be used regardless. But even with those, the good Lord either allows you to throw fast or he doesn't. Perhaps that's where the "gifted" part comes in.

The other issue that needs to be said here is this: this whole "open/closed" discussion needs to understand that if the pitcher is "closed" at the release, and the ball did not come through the hips first, then backspin for a riseball is simply not going to happen. Most girls learning how throw riseballs have sidespin or bullet spin because of their mechanics being "closed". it's not my rule, I didn't invent it. And this is also what leads to so many of the riseball debates.. basing the discussion off people who's mechanics do not even allow for proper spin. These mechanics are mostly why so many pitching coaches teach 5 different pitching motions and mechanics to throw 5 different pitches. They have to force the movement instead of letting it break, and they disguise this with the "gender" thing about people like me being able to do it cause I'm a male. Yea, ok. yet, Osterman is in the identical positions I am in certain positions.. Hmmmmm.

 

[Darrick Brown]

As far as open or closed, in my opinion you shouldnt be either at release. The study shows 45-52 degrees at release. I believe that is very accurate and in my opinion safer and easier to throw all of the pitches without making adjustments to throw spin pitches. As Bill stated we dont want mechanics to change to throw a different pitch. It makes me cringe watching kids do this. Plenty of bad stuff to watch on youtube, ha!

 

[Mark H]

Mark, I don't disagree entirely. But the same could be said for a stocky strong girl who can throw hard despite what she's doing.

This is the same argument that a lot of female pitching coaches use AGAINST male coaches... "he's a guy, he can do things that you cannot because he's stronger". Yet, you look at me and it becomes difficult to make that particular argument. Afterall, I'm pretty sure I can pitch faster than most people who are stronger than me. And yet, I'm not as fast as some people who are smaller than me.

The reality is, IMHO, correct mechanics need to be used regardless. But even with those, the good Lord either allows you to throw fast or he doesn't. Perhaps that's where the "gifted" part comes in.

The other issue that needs to be said here is this: this whole "open/closed" discussion needs to understand that if the pitcher is "closed" at the release, and the ball did not come through the hips first, then backspin for a riseball is simply not going to happen. Most girls learning how throw riseballs have sidespin or bullet spin because of their mechanics being "closed". it's not my rule, I didn't invent it. And this is also what leads to so many of the riseball debates.. basing the discussion off people who's mechanics do not even allow for proper spin. These mechanics are mostly why so many pitching coaches teach 5 different pitching motions and mechanics to throw 5 different pitches. They have to force the movement instead of letting it break, and they disguise this with the "gender" thing about people like me being able to do it cause I'm a male. Yea, ok. yet, Osterman is in the identical positions I am in certain positions.. Hmmmmm.

I agree with all that with a couple of caveats. I have seen some very flexible girls who could externally rotate the shoulder, if I have that term correct, to an extraordinary degree. Not that that invalidates the rule that being a little more open on the rise helps. On your assertion that "correct" mechanics need to be used, well, yeah, but just like in hitting, their are plenty of people with resumes who disagree on what those correct mechanics are. I agree there are mechanics that are the most efficient and safe. I'm just saying words like correct, or in hitting the popular word is "proper mechanics", imply a level of agreement across the sport that just isn't there. We in the sport can't even agree on the definitions of terms. That's why I try to avoid words like closed, open, figure 4, leap and drag, stepping style etc in favor of linking to a clip and saying, "there, pitch like that". You standing in front of someone teaching have the advantage of making sure they understand your words. Not so on the net.

By the way, I see where Mike White was recently honored. http://spysoftball.com/index.php?op...-23-update&catid=59:2009-september&Itemid=116

 

[batsics1]

"As far as open or closed, in my opinion you shouldnt be either at release. The study shows 45-52 degrees at release."

Does a closed style dictate that the hips never open more than 45-52 degrees at any point in the motion? Or, that the hips don't open to this degree? Does an open style dictate that one releases the ball with the hips at a greater angle? What is optimal: that the hips only open to a 45-52 angle or that they only close to this angle at release? The devils in the details!

 

[Mark H]

Pitch like the link in post 43.

 

[Ken Krause]

Mark and I have debated this one before, and we probably will again. But when I watch videos, and especially when I pitch, I feel the hip and shoulder "rotation" as a natural result of the back leg driving into the front leg and the elbow passing the hip. Once the forward drive is finished the pitcher tends to finish out to the side, which is interpreted as closing. But it's not a conscious effort to face the plate in the elite pitchers I watch. It's something that occurs more organically in my opinion.

I see this in the Sarah Pauly video. I see it in Bill Hillhouse's video. Since it happens after release it doesn't appear to be a conscious effort.

On some of the other videos, such as the link that shows Cat, there does seem to be a slight, sudden rotation before release. I guess what I wonder is given the era Cat started pitching in, and the prevailing opinions of how to pitch, is this an attempt to bring the hip into the pitch, or is it an effort to stop it from getting in the way after a few years of closing - a sort of vestigial rotation? I don't know the answer, nor do I pretend to. But I think both are possibilities.