I thought the itent of the rule was to rest Ps and Cs playing multiple games in a day. cannot see how CR for P speeds up game at all, anyone on base has to run in on 3rd out, take off helmert and gloves, grab glove (and mask) and run out. C with putting the gear on, yes, but not P.
NFHS Courtesy Runner Rule
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A correct CR does not (cannot) need to head back out into the field.
As an umpire, under "normal" CR rules, I write "CR1" or "CR2" next to the sub when they are entered so that I can track it. Again, my suggestion is to speed up the game because we are bogging it down with an intended speed up rule. It isn't about me tracking, it is about eliminating the coach running through his whole lineup card asking me "Can she run? How about her? OK, get your helmet. Oh wait, she's in the bathroom ... and somebody else has her helmet."
This isn't an umpire issue, it is a coach issue. They are eating up game time for their own players. Just like any other situation, a coach who know what he/she is doing and knows the rule, will have no issue getting a runner in and out quickly.
As for speed up for a P? Eh, it sometimes uses up more than it saves. However, living up north, there are many times a P will want to be in the dugout with a jacket on to keep her arm warm rather than on base.
I was comparing a P on base vs say the LF on base as well at end of inning. they both need to do the same thing pretty much (LF probably not grabbing a facemask, so maybe 5 seconds quicker).
as for cold, MLB pitchers will base run if they reach with a jacket on.
no way you can say CR for P speeds game up, even if coach is right on the spot and CR was ready to go. C is a whole nother story
as for cold, MLB pitchers will base run if they reach with a jacket on.
no way you can say CR for P speeds game up, even if coach is right on the spot and CR was ready to go. C is a whole nother story
True, but what is faster, switching out a runner or getting a jacket, getting it to the P having her put it on and zipped/snapped?
One of the issues I have seen with CRs is that, for some reason, the P/C wants to remain at the base until the CR gets there. This is NOT required as the ball is already dead. If a coach is using CRs, or informs you that they want to in this case, get that runner headed to the dugout while the CR grabs her helmet and heads to the base.
no way you can say CR for P speeds game up
Sure it does. The P is already in the dugout. End of inning she heads directly out and gets her pitches in. While she is doing that the rest of the defense is getting off bases/getting equipment, getting to position. There is no rule that states they MUST receive time for warm up throws between innings. That is reserved for the P and is limited to 5 pitches/one minute. If fielders are slow getting out then they just need to deal.
- May 29, 2015
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No. Just no.
The meaner reply, which I have said to a coach who was whining: No coach. That's your problem, not mine. Get more players or work on your conditioning. Quit grinding your kids into the ground.
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- May 29, 2015
- 3,815
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I can't speak for you Ed, but I see this too. Purely anecdotal ... but I've started telling the runner to get off the base and head to the dugout once the coach announces he is using a CR. I have found that getting that runner off the bag seems to get everybody else moving. The longer the runner stands on the bag, the longer everybody else screws around. The visual of an empty bag seems to emphasize "We NEED to get a runner out there!"
Thank you for spelling out the pitcher scenario. At one point I was in favor of eliminating the CR for the pitcher, but this is a valid reason. A NOTE that I know you know, but I want to spell out for coaches/parents: a pitcher is not guaranteed five pitches between innings (five is the cap). If she screws around in the dugout and wastes her minute, I will instruct the teams to play ball.
True, and this is going a bit off-topic, but.... The only time-limit I have on levels/leagues I work is daylight (no 75 min games etc). If a C needs to strap on the gear, the P will get 3 warm-ups to the player who came out while the C was getting ready, then I will tell the P. "Go ahead and play some catch, but I am saving your last 2 for your C." If the team doesn't have someone come to warm up the P, then they will get only the 2 when the C finally gets out there.
That leaves the C the chance to receive a pitch and then one to throw down. This works in both SB and BB. And frankly, in HS SB, after the first inning or two, the P takes 2-3 pitches and is ready to go. (YMMV)
- Oct 24, 2010
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Poor execution is entirely on the coach. Smart coach has already instructed Penny to be ready anytime Patty Pitcher is batting. Likewise for the catcher. Help those with less experience.
Not so smart coach still has to ask who can run if Penny gets hurt between innings or horsing around in the dugout. Or, he has to ask if Cindy, listed as CRC, can run for Patty because 'reasons'.
Re: courtesy runners in general. Not only is it a potential speedup for the catcher and a bit of rest for both, there is a non-zero chance of getting injured while on the bases. Pitchers are 80% of the game, right?
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- Mar 18, 2023
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Reviving the thread again because this is the one that always come sup when I search for this answer.
My catcher is 4th in the lineup, is a really solid athlete and is not the typical slow oaf catcher. I bat her right in front of my pitcher (who is bigger and slower and very likely to get hurt if she slides). I have never had an issue using my C to courtesy for my P. I've done it for at least 50 games and never had a single coach or ump complain. Had a friendly last week and the other coach said "you can't have your catcher run for your pitcher". I can't seem to find ANYTHING that says I can't do that. She was the LCAB, the last out, or whatever you want to call her. Where does it say I can't have my catcher run for my pitcher?
We play USA and USSSA ball. Am I missing something here or am I fine using my catcher to pinch run for the pitcher?
P.S. Don't tell me why the rule exists and I'm, slowing down the whole game. I'm not, my catcher is out on the field 45 seconds after hitting the dugout and is taking the last 2 pitches and throwing down to second. I just want to know if it's legal or not.
My catcher is 4th in the lineup, is a really solid athlete and is not the typical slow oaf catcher. I bat her right in front of my pitcher (who is bigger and slower and very likely to get hurt if she slides). I have never had an issue using my C to courtesy for my P. I've done it for at least 50 games and never had a single coach or ump complain. Had a friendly last week and the other coach said "you can't have your catcher run for your pitcher". I can't seem to find ANYTHING that says I can't do that. She was the LCAB, the last out, or whatever you want to call her. Where does it say I can't have my catcher run for my pitcher?
We play USA and USSSA ball. Am I missing something here or am I fine using my catcher to pinch run for the pitcher?
P.S. Don't tell me why the rule exists and I'm, slowing down the whole game. I'm not, my catcher is out on the field 45 seconds after hitting the dugout and is taking the last 2 pitches and throwing down to second. I just want to know if it's legal or not.
The last USSSA rulebook I have is 2020 and under that rulebook, no you cannot do that. A courtesy runner must be a player who has not yet participated in the game. Same for USA. USSSA the same courtesy runner cannot run for both the pitcher and catcher in the same inning. Under USA the same courtesy runner may never run for both positions. Once they have run for either position, they can only run for that position.
There are some differences I know for USA under pool play when a team is batting the entire lineup, but Im not sure what exactly those rules are. I believe it is last batted out can courtesy run but do not quote me on it.
Dont know how you have gotten away with it so long if you have been doing that. Someone should have picked up on it by now, especially the umpires if they are paying any attention.
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