Tournament weekend, rules questions (and willing to be wrong)

[Agcy]

They'll get ready faster when we start enforcing the "1 minute between innings" and their pitcher doesn't get any warmups.

But then someone will complain about enforcing a rule that already exists 'cuz they need time to coach their girls between innings...

 

[The Man In Blue]

Cannot give @eddieq and @canyonjoe ‘s posts enough “likes.”

Courtesy runners do not speed up the game which is the ONLY real purpose. Shenanigans like the rules the summer codes have adopted make it worse, not better. (Your courtesy runner has to be an available sub, unless you don’t have one, then it can be the player furthest removed from the last unearned run scored by an outfielder, except on Tuesdays when you can use the pizza delivery guy, unless he isn’t available, then you can … sorry, I quit caring as an umpire. Just write the rule as “Put whoever you want out there” or, better yet, NO COURTESY RUNNERS.)

 

[eddieq]

But then someone will complain about enforcing a rule that already exists 'cuz they need time to coach their girls between innings...

Ask me how many times I've heard, "You're the first umpire to enforce that, blue". The problem is, they always say that, even when I enforce "that" with them in last night's game. *

*Doesn't necessarily mean the 1 minute between innings. Choose whatever rule (obscure or not) that was enforced and insert clueless coach arguing against it here.

 

[Dabears17]

I usually hold the pitcher to one or two pitches for warm-ups if the catcher takes a long time to get out there.

1 minute between innings after last out of last half inning was an NFHS point of emphasis this year, but I think there was a thread a couple months back of someone complaining about NFHS's new rule.

 

[eddieq]

Worked 12u last night (big surprise). One inning the visiting team took forever to bring out the catcher. A coach finally came out to let their pitcher throw. As soon as I saw the catcher walking out I called for balls in and we rolled.

Of course that is also practice for the catcher. At this level they are caching because it’s “their turn and the gear fits” not because it’s their position. For my safety maybe I should have let her take a few more.

 

[Dabears17]

Worked 12u last night (big surprise). One inning the visiting team took forever to bring out the catcher. A coach finally came out to let their pitcher throw. As soon as I saw the catcher walking out I called for balls in and we rolled.

Of course that is also practice for the catcher. At this level they are caching because it’s “their turn and the gear fits” not because it’s their position. For my safety maybe I should have let her take a few more.

That is why in rec I allow one or two pitches, no matter how long it takes them to get out there.

 

[bulld1055]

Hello everyone, we had a tournament this weekend and I'd like some specific rules clarified. I searched USA softball rule book but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Im also exhausted from working at the tournament (our league's hosted All Star tournament) so its possible im overlooking something.

1) Championship game get went to international tie breaker so my last out from the previous inning starts the inning on 2nd base. I wanted to sub that runner for one of my faster kids currently on the bench. Umpire told me I could not sub the runner until after the first pitch was thrown. My understanding is that the runner can be substituted for at any time and could have started the inning on 2nd base?

2) Earlier game(s), using DP/Flex rule and tournament rules allowed for courtesy runner for Pitcher/Catcher no matter what line up. To my knowledge courtesy runner is the last out. Happened in 2 games and I got 2 different rules. One umpire first game said it has to be one of your kid's on the bench and they were married to that Pitcher the whole game. The 2nd game, umpire told me that only the DP could courtesy run for my pitcher or catcher. Unfortunately my DP batted right after my pitcher so he basically said I was SOL.

Thanks!

1. You can substitute anytime you like as long as they are legal players. FYI it's last completed at bat not necessarily the last out. ie. forced runner at second base is the last out but the last completed at bat was the batter. Just go furthest away from your first batter and you will always be ok.
2. You start with legal subs as CR no matter the lineup used. If none available its once again the player furthest from the player being run for.

 

[Charblue]

For the courtesy runner, correct and it depends on the tournament rules you are using, as to who it can/can't be. When the tournament is not allowing for batting the line-up and staying with batting 9 or a DP/Flex. Then the courtesy runner must come from available substitutes.

Another good thing to remember is the courtesy runner is tied to the position not the player. What I mean is that if Salley is pitching in the 1st inning and a courtesy runner is used for her when she gets on bases, then that runner is tied to the pitching position. So, if Susan who was SS is now pitching the 4th inning and Salley moved to SS (traded places). The courtesy runner is only allowed to run for Susan the next at bat. This works the same for catchers. A courtesy runner may not be tied to both positions at once.

Also, keep in mind that the runner may still be used as a traditional substitute for any player at any time, but they are no longer eligible to be a courtesy runner from then forward.

Just as a point, it is better to use the phrase last completed at-bat for ITB runners, not last out. For example, runner on 2nd with 2 outs. Ball 4 comes to the batter, who walks. The runner on 2 thinks she is forced to move-up or tries to steal 3rd and is tagged out on the play. Your 3rd out was the runner on 2, but if you go to ITB the next inning, the batter who drew the walk is placed on 2nd. I'm not saying you got this confused, but I have several long conversations with coaches on both ends, not understanding what is done. Including a coach that tried to argue out-of-order for the runner on 2nd base from the exact scenario I gave. He used last out application and thought the runner trying to steal should be placed there, and the girl behind the girl that walked should be batting.

For the substitute on the runner for ITB, it is allowed as long as you have a player available for substitution. However, a courtesy runner may not be used in this case if it was the pitcher or catcher placed on 2nd. They must reach the base safely after they complete an at-bat that inning, to be eligible for a courtesy runner. If done it would be substitute and could possibly lead to burning a player, you didn't mean to burn.

A courtesy runner is a courtesy for the pitcher and catcher positions. The rule is designed to increase game participation, speed up player changes and give teams offensive flexibility in the same way the DP and Flex positions provide lineup flexibility. A substitute or non-starter when used as a courtesy runner is tied to whatever position player, pitcher or catcher, for whom she is running. Her role ends when she enters the game as a replacement for a starter or substitute in an inning outside the same half inning she is used as a courtesy runner. There is a possibility because of this arrangement that a courtesy runner could be a runner for either the DP or Flex, if those position players are designated in the lineup as pitcher and catcher. A courtesy runner isn't interchangeable for pitcher or catcher. One player each assumes that role and a substitution doesn't alter their independent status. A team must have more than 9 players listed on their lineup card in order to have an eligible player available to courtesy run. When all players have been subbed in, the courtesy runner privilege is no longer available.

 

[Nasolis]

A courtesy runner is a courtesy for the pitcher and catcher positions. The rule is designed to increase game participation, speed up player changes and give teams offensive flexibility in the same way the DP and Flex positions provide lineup flexibility. A substitute or non-starter when used as a courtesy runner is tied to whatever position player, pitcher or catcher, for whom she is running. Her role ends when she enters the game as a replacement for a starter or substitute in an inning outside the same half inning she is used as a courtesy runner. There is a possibility because of this arrangement that a courtesy runner could be a runner for either the DP or Flex, if those position players are designated in the lineup as pitcher and catcher. A courtesy runner isn't interchangeable for pitcher or catcher. One player each assumes that role and a substitution doesn't alter their independent status. A team must have more than 9 players listed on their lineup card in order to have an eligible player available to courtesy run. When all players have been subbed in, the courtesy runner privilege is no longer available.

That is exactly what I said, except for what is in bold. There is no possible way to have a courtesy runner for a DP or Flex. The DP is the position of the player, so if a team is using DP/Flex and the Flex is the pitcher or catcher, the DP is NOT entitled to a courtesy runner, any change to her in the line-up is a substitute and the DP has left the game. The Flex is a defensive player only do not how you can have an offensive runner for a defense only player. If the coach decides to bat the Flex, then the line-up officially goes back to 9 and the DP/Flex no longer exists and as the Flex is batting and fielding, she is just a position player and if the pitcher/catcher then they are entitled to a courtesy runner. The DP is also considered to have used an entry as she has "left" the game.

The same would be true if you reversed it and the DP went to be pitcher for the Flex. The Flex as “left” the game and the DP is now in the position of the Pitcher not the DP. In both situations the DP/Flex is no longer in use.

 

[Comp]

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, no the dp would not be entitled to a courtesy running of the flex was the pitcher or catcher, but the DP can play either of those positions for any other player and they would be eligible for a courtesy runner.