Tournament weekend, rules questions (and willing to be wrong)

[RJK]

Hello everyone, we had a tournament this weekend and I'd like some specific rules clarified. I searched USA softball rule book but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Im also exhausted from working at the tournament (our league's hosted All Star tournament) so its possible im overlooking something.

1) Championship game get went to international tie breaker so my last out from the previous inning starts the inning on 2nd base. I wanted to sub that runner for one of my faster kids currently on the bench. Umpire told me I could not sub the runner until after the first pitch was thrown. My understanding is that the runner can be substituted for at any time and could have started the inning on 2nd base?

2) Earlier game(s), using DP/Flex rule and tournament rules allowed for courtesy runner for Pitcher/Catcher no matter what line up. To my knowledge courtesy runner is the last out. Happened in 2 games and I got 2 different rules. One umpire first game said it has to be one of your kid's on the bench and they were married to that Pitcher the whole game. The 2nd game, umpire told me that only the DP could courtesy run for my pitcher or catcher. Unfortunately my DP batted right after my pitcher so he basically said I was SOL.

Thanks!

 

[Greatdaytobeawildcat]

Hello everyone, we had a tournament this weekend and I'd like some specific rules clarified. I searched USA softball rule book but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Im also exhausted from working at the tournament (our league's hosted All Star tournament) so its possible im overlooking something.

1) Championship game get went to international tie breaker so my last out from the previous inning starts the inning on 2nd base. I wanted to sub that runner for one of my faster kids currently on the bench. Umpire told me I could not sub the runner until after the first pitch was thrown. My understanding is that the runner can be substituted for at any time and could have started the inning on 2nd base?

2) Earlier game(s), using DP/Flex rule and tournament rules allowed for courtesy runner for Pitcher/Catcher no matter what line up. To my knowledge courtesy runner is the last out. Happened in 2 games and I got 2 different rules. One umpire first game said it has to be one of your kid's on the bench and they were married to that Pitcher the whole game. The 2nd game, umpire told me that only the DP could courtesy run for my pitcher or catcher. Unfortunately my DP batted right after my pitcher so he basically said I was SOL.

Thanks!

USA. 5.11.A: Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat last in that respective half inning being placed on second base (e.g., if the number five batter is the lead off batter, the number four batter in the batting order will be placed on second base. A substitute may be inserted for the runner).

2) In USA rules, in pool play, any player may be used as a courtesy runner (doesn't have to be a substitute). In bracket play, courtesy runner must be a substitute. There is no provision for the courtesy runner being the last out, the last batted out, or the player who is scheduled to bat last in that half inning. The same courtesy runner may not run for both the pitcher and the catcher at any time during the game. (full rules in 8.10)

 

[Dabears17]

SECTION 10 - COURTESY RUNNERS (Fast Pitch / Modified Pitch) AND MASTERS AND SENIORS FAST PITCH
A. The team at bat may use a courtesy runner:
1 For the pitcher and/or the catcher providing the pitcher or catcher bats for themselves and reaches base safely.
2 Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave the game under such circumstances.
3 The same courtesy runner may not run for both the pitcher and the catcher at any time during the game.
4 Defensive changes involving the pitcher or catcher must be reported to the umpire to ensure the correct player may have a courtesy runner.

B. In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the line-up as the pitcher or catcher. Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. If a substitute enters for the pitcher or catcher in the following offensive half-inning and reaches base safely, should the pitcher or catcher re-enter, the courtesy runner is not permitted for the pitcher or catcher until after their next turn at-bat. C. Players who are currently in the game or have participated in the game in any playing capacity are not eligible to serve as courtesy runners. Exception: Junior Olympic Fast Pitch Pool Play and Masters and Seniors Fast Pitch only, any eligible player can be used as a courtesy runner. If this player is on base when it is their time at bat:

1 The player who the courtesy runner is running for will be called out.
2 The courtesy runner will be removed from the base and take their turn at bat.

D. A player may not be a substitute for any player in the half inning that they participated as a courtesy runner. Exception: Should an injury or disqualification occur and no substitutes are available, the courtesy runner must be used as a substitute and take the place of the injured player. Should the courtesy runner be on base and is entered as a substitute, the pitcher or catcher for whom the courtesy runner is running must run in their place.

E. If the DP bats for the pitcher or catcher and reaches base safely, a courtesy runner is not permitted to run for the Designated Player (DP), or their substitute, including the pitcher or catcher.

F. Once the courtesy runner is designated for that half-inning, the pitcher or catcher for whom they are running may not return to run while that courtesy runner is on base. A courtesy runner cannot run for a courtesy runner. Exception: Should an injury or disqualification occur to any offensive player, and 107 no eligible substitutes are available, the courtesy runner must take the place of the injured or disqualified player. In this case, the courtesy runner enters as a substitute and the pitcher or catcher for whom the courtesy runner is running must run in their place.

G. A courtesy runner must be reported to the plate umpire.
Effect - Section 10A-G: If a courtesy runner fails to report or violates the Courtesy Runner Rule, they are considered:
1 An illegal runner.
2 Shall be disqualified

 

[Sparky Guy]

The umpire who told you the courtesy runner was someone from the bench and married to the pitcher is correct. Unless that player is now in the game.

 

[RJK]

Players who are currently in the game or have participated in the game in any playing capacity are not eligible to serve as courtesy runners.

So it sounds like the umpire that said the courtesy runner must be a player on the bench made the correct call.

 

[Nasolis]

So it sounds like the umpire that said the courtesy runner must be a player on the bench made the correct call.

For the courtesy runner, correct and it depends on the tournament rules you are using, as to who it can/can't be. When the tournament is not allowing for batting the line-up and staying with batting 9 or a DP/Flex. Then the courtesy runner must come from available substitutes.

Another good thing to remember is the courtesy runner is tied to the position not the player. What I mean is that if Salley is pitching in the 1st inning and a courtesy runner is used for her when she gets on bases, then that runner is tied to the pitching position. So, if Susan who was SS is now pitching the 4th inning and Salley moved to SS (traded places). The courtesy runner is only allowed to run for Susan the next at bat. This works the same for catchers. A courtesy runner may not be tied to both positions at once.

Also, keep in mind that the runner may still be used as a traditional substitute for any player at any time, but they are no longer eligible to be a courtesy runner from then forward.

Just as a point, it is better to use the phrase last completed at-bat for ITB runners, not last out. For example, runner on 2nd with 2 outs. Ball 4 comes to the batter, who walks. The runner on 2 thinks she is forced to move-up or tries to steal 3rd and is tagged out on the play. Your 3rd out was the runner on 2, but if you go to ITB the next inning, the batter who drew the walk is placed on 2nd. I'm not saying you got this confused, but I have several long conversations with coaches on both ends, not understanding what is done. Including a coach that tried to argue out-of-order for the runner on 2nd base from the exact scenario I gave. He used last out application and thought the runner trying to steal should be placed there, and the girl behind the girl that walked should be batting.

For the substitute on the runner for ITB, it is allowed as long as you have a player available for substitution. However, a courtesy runner may not be used in this case if it was the pitcher or catcher placed on 2nd. They must reach the base safely after they complete an at-bat that inning, to be eligible for a courtesy runner. If done it would be substitute and could possibly lead to burning a player, you didn't mean to burn.

 

[Crabby_Bob]

Speaking USA:

If the wrong courtesy runner is placed on 2nd, put the correct one out there.

Case book:
PLAY 5.11-2 (Female and Men 40 & 45-O FP Only) In the eighth inning, an incorrect runner is at 2B to start the inning.
The incorrect runner steals 3B. The umpire is notified of the incorrect runner.
RULING: Correctable situation. Place the correct runner on 3B. All other play stands. (4-6F[3a] EXCEPTION; 5-11)

A pitcher or catcher who is the runner placed on 2nd base may have a courtesy runner is there is one available:

April 2014 Plays and Clarifications:

Play: In the top of the 8th inning, F2, who was the last batter to complete their turn at bat, is placed on 2B. The offense wants to put a Courtesy Runner in to run for F2. The umpires do not allow this because F2 did not bat and reach base safely.
Ruling: The umpires should have allowed F2 to have a Courtesy Runner. As long as F1 and/or F2 batted for themselves in the inning prior to the tie breaker and were the last to complete their turn at bat, they have earned the right to be put on 2B, therefore they can have a Courtesy Runner. Rule 8 Section 10A

 

[Nasolis]

Speaking USA:

If the wrong courtesy runner is placed on 2nd, put the correct one out there.

Case book:
PLAY 5.11-2 (Female and Men 40 & 45-O FP Only) In the eighth inning, an incorrect runner is at 2B to start the inning.
The incorrect runner steals 3B. The umpire is notified of the incorrect runner.
RULING: Correctable situation. Place the correct runner on 3B. All other play stands. (4-6F[3a] EXCEPTION; 5-11)

A pitcher or catcher who is the runner placed on 2nd base may have a courtesy runner is there is one available:

April 2014 Plays and Clarifications:

Play: In the top of the 8th inning, F2, who was the last batter to complete their turn at bat, is placed on 2B. The offense wants to put a Courtesy Runner in to run for F2. The umpires do not allow this because F2 did not bat and reach base safely.
Ruling: The umpires should have allowed F2 to have a Courtesy Runner. As long as F1 and/or F2 batted for themselves in the inning prior to the tie breaker and were the last to complete their turn at bat, they have earned the right to be put on 2B, therefore they can have a Courtesy Runner. Rule 8 Section 10A

Except that is for Female & Male 40 & 45 only (I added the bold). Not for Junior Olympic which is what girls USA softball is played under. Under JO a courtesy runner is only allowed if the pitcher or catcher reach the base safely after the have batted that inning. Dabears17 wrote the entire section from the rule book. If that is done in JO then it is treated as an unreported sub or illegal player, depending on which situation has occurred with that player previously (more than likely an unreported sub).

 

[canyonjoe]

I with softball would do away with this nonsense. Just run the bases if you get on. Catchers can learn to get ready faster. You don't need a huddle before and after each inning

 

[eddieq]

They'll get ready faster when we start enforcing the "1 minute between innings" and their pitcher doesn't get any warmups.