Need Help

[Doug Romrell]

My DD decided just over a year ago at the age of 14 that she wanted to play softball. Of course, I thought she was a bit late in acquiring this interest. Well, she was adamant. Now, 15 months and a lot of work later, I need insight in helping her with her pitching. I've taught her the Hillhouse style and she does okay for how new she is to the game. There are some things I see in this clip of her pitching that I'd like to tweak, I'm curious what others see (hopefully Hillhouse). Skip her standing there getting ready to pitch by jumping to the 1:10 mark.

Pitching - Fastpitch Softball - YouTube

 

[sluggers]

I gotta give you a little tough love:

She needs a pitching instructor. A Daddy working with DVDs can only do so much. You taught her the basic motion, and you did a good job. She is behind other girls her age. She needs someone who can fix her motion *RIGHT NOW*. She looks like she has the talent and the drive to pitch. So, you and her have to either go "all in" immediately or forget it.

Why do I say this? After viewing the video, it seems you focused on one part of her motion (her leg drive) and didn't see the problems with her arm. So, her leg action is pretty good but her arm circle is a mess. She never fully extends her arm. The arm is supposed to be straight at 12, and then she bends the arm and pulls down with the elbow.

She has a bend in it all the way through the circle. Her hand never gets in the right position, so her release is messed up.

You aren't going to be able correct these problems quickly and efficiently. So, please, sit your DD down and you and her decide if she really wants to do this.

 

[Doug Romrell]

No, I wasn't focused on the leg drive (could be more explosive) as much as I was focused on her arm at release (near 6:00). I think her forearm should pass through being straight near her thigh (or slightly behind it) rather than around her upper arm. I, and I'm sure others, disagree with your assessment of her arm at 12:00 (that it should necessarily be straight). I like the Hillhouse approach much more than the approach you're hinting of (locked elbow). However, I am a student of the game (have been for the past 18 years) and am always open to the opinions of others.

Further, the nearest pitching coaches from here are 60 miles away, and their style is not at all like the Hillhouse style we're sold on. Would sure be great if he'd do a clinic in Salt Lake City.

 

[sluggers]

I confused you. My apologies. I was hoping to convince to go see a pitching coach, not to get into a technical argument about when the arm breaks.

(Bill *HATES* when people starting talking about his motion and what he does. So, I'm attaching a picture of Bill throwing a ball, and you decide whether his arm is straight or not.)

To generate whip, the elbow has to lead the forearm after 12. Right after 12, the arm should have a bend at the elbow, setting up the whip action for release. At some point before 12, the arm should be straight. Exactly where that point is varies from pitcher to pitcher. Somewhere between the "point at the catcher" and 12 is where the arm bends.

Attached are pictures of the best women pitchers ever, Jenny Finch and Cat Osterman. Note how straight their arm is. Here is slow motion video of Amanda Scarborough, another great woman pitcher check out how straight her arm is from the back swing until 1 or so.

So:

(1) At 3 (pointing directly at the catcher), the arm should be straight.
(2) Between 3 and 12, the arm should break.
(3) After 12, the elbow leads the forearm down until release, when the forearm passes the elbow.

Your DD never achieves a straight arm anywhere in her motion. It is always bent. So, she is losing speed.

[video=youtube_share;k5X86nD_WS4]http://youtu.be/k5X86nD_WS4[/video]

Someone who teaches pitching regularly (like Bill, Amy, Hal, Boardmember, Ken, etc.) would have corrected this fault from the beginning. Your DD, if she is going to pitch, needs to go a pro.

Teaching is not about technical knowledge as it is understanding the progression of a student through the learning process. (I'm a much better writer than my wife. My wife has taught writing for 30 years. Guess who can teach writing better?) Don't kid myself into thinking you can teach pitching better someone who has seen hundreds of kids.

Your DD has progressed as far as you can take her. She really needs a professional pitching coach.

 

[marriard]

Further, the nearest pitching coaches from here are 60 miles away, and their style is not at all like the Hillhouse style we're sold on. Would sure be great if he'd do a clinic in Salt Lake City.

I'll second Sluggers on a PC - even if it is once a month or even if you exchange videos every week it would help. Go as far as you need to go to find the person you want - there are options.

She is clearly athletic and there is a potential there so if she really wants it outside coaching help is going to be beneficial. If she was 8 or 9 you could gain the knowledge you and your daughter need as she progressed and be OK (there is at least one person who has been her daughters only PC as her dad on this forum - likely more) but not when she is already 15.

To see what I think Sluggers is seeing, video her directly from behind. It is hard to see from the side view but I can almost guarantee her 'circle' goes off at a weird angle with her arm motion - it almost looks like she is going around her body or trying to get her body out of the way of the arm circle to try to create extra torque and speed. I am also interested to see if she is trying to compensate for this by having her glove side fly out to the left or by by using her rear leg almost like a rudder to keep her balance. I say this because her delivery looks awfully similar to what my daughter was doing before it was corrected by her pitching coach - it does generate some power and speed but you can see a whole lot of stress on the body and it does seem to effect progression onto more speed and movement.

 

[curiousgeorge]

Doug, why don't you organize a clinic with Bill in Salt Lake? I know from talking with him he spent a lot of time there playing for teams and seemed to love it out there.

DD has been seeing Bill for quite a while and, while I don't want to speak for him, I will say this. I don't think he "hates" when people talk about his pitching or his motion stuff, I think he dislikes when people call it "Hillhouse style" and various names. He is adamant that he didn't invent or create anything regarding pitching, unlike other instructors HERE who seem to think they created phrases, terminology, etc. He simply teaches what he knows, what he does, and what has worked for him with the "Why" attached.

Doug, odds are if you have a facility (indoor cages or just a school/church gym) you will have people from all over the area wanting to come.

cg

 

[Doug Romrell]

curiousgeorge,

Let me clarify, what I have tried to teach her is what I have gleaned from the teachings of Bill Hillhouse. That doesn't at all mean how she looks in this clip is strickly what Hillhouse would have her do. It isn't, probably not all that close either.

I disagree with slugger if, when he says the arm should be straight at 12:00, he means locked elbow. The way I see it is the only way your arm can be perfectly straight at 12:00 is with a locked elbow. Now I might be convinced that her arm is a bit too bent at 12:00. I might also be convinced that the "arm circle" should be perfectly vertical, though I'm skeptical. Even in a pitcher uses the "open" style, I think it's hard for them to get a perfectly vertical arm circle.

The biggest issue I see and would like to work with her on is the forearm and hand seem to go out around her upper arm at release. Am I wrong to think in getting forearm whip and snap that her hand and lower forearm should be closer to her thigh at release??? Don't get me wrong. I don't think the sole focus should be the release.

I'm not completely opposed to a "pitching coach." However, there are a lot of differences in the things pitching coaches teach, even if there are at least a few commonalities. Further, I don't believe that it is impossible for a father/coach to teach correct pitching mechanics (wish the clip of my daughter showed her pitching the way I'm trying to get her to pitch). What I'm trying to say is this... Going to a "pitching coach" doesn't necessarily result in the best outcome given pitching coaches disagree on many aspects of pitching. Having daddy work with daughter doesn't necessarily mean she will not learn to pitch well.

Wish we could have made up to the upcoming Hillhouse clinic in Montana. I could, for a small fee, send him a clip of her for his critique and guidance. Don't get me wrong, I've enhanced my knowledge from the few posts here and the private messages.

 

[WaSpeed02]

curiousgeorge,
I disagree with slugger if, when he says the arm should be straight at 12:00, he means locked elbow. The way I see it is the only way your arm can be perfectly straight at 12:00 is with a locked elbow. Now I might be convinced that her arm is a bit too bent at 12:00. I might also be convinced that the "arm circle" should be perfectly vertical, though I'm skeptical. Even in a pitcher uses the "open" style, I think it's hard for them to get a perfectly vertical arm circle.

Regarding locked elbows: I don't think there is anything wrong with locked elbows per se, as long as it happens prior to 12'clock in the motion. In fact, I'd venture to guess all pitchers lock their elbow when starting their delivery in one of two ways:

1. For those who have a backswing, their elbow will temporarily lock as they begin the circle motion.

2. For those who explode with the hand in the glove like Hillhouse teaches, their elbow will be locked at 3 o'clock due to the force of "jumping" off the plate with both arms. It's fundamentally the same motion you have when you rebound a basketball. Your elbows, including the throwing arm, will be briefly locked in front of you to generate power and momentum.

 

[Doug Romrell]

WaSpeed, I agree (mainly your first sentence). I'm just saying that I don't think the elbow HAS TO be locked at any time prior to 12:00 either.

 

[marriard]

curiousgeorge,

I disagree with slugger if, when he says the arm should be straight at 12:00, he means locked elbow. The way I see it is the only way your arm can be perfectly straight at 12:00 is with a locked elbow. Now I might be convinced that her arm is a bit too bent at 12:00. I might also be convinced that the "arm circle" should be perfectly vertical, though I'm skeptical. Even in a pitcher uses the "open" style, I think it's hard for them to get a perfectly vertical arm circle.

As you will see, Sluggers doesn't say it HAS to be locked at 12 - just that there is a straighter arm portion of the pitch (not locked - just straighter) and we don't see it in the video. He has indicated that the arm circle doesn't look right and identified an area where it could be improved - read his second post on the subject. Read mine on possible causes and issues I see from the side view.

The biggest issue I see and would like to work with her on is the forearm and hand seem to go out around her upper arm at release. Am I wrong to think in getting forearm whip and snap that her hand and lower forearm should be closer to her thigh at release??? Don't get me wrong. I don't think the sole focus should be the release.

It could well be that what you are seeing is caused by the direction of the arm circle and her trying to get back to where she should be at release. While it may not be totally vertical it can't be way off kilter and angled. Again - need video from behind to really see this. My DD was doing it to clear the hips and body, or because her glove arm was flying out but I have seen several other causes as well. You don't want to force the arm into a position that could be caused by an earlier part of the pitching sequence.

I'm not completely opposed to a "pitching coach." However, there are a lot of differences in the things pitching coaches teach, even if there are at least a few commonalities. Further, I don't believe that it is impossible for a father/coach to teach correct pitching mechanics (wish the clip of my daughter showed her pitching the way I'm trying to get her to pitch). What I'm trying to say is this... Going to a "pitching coach" doesn't necessarily result in the best outcome given pitching coaches disagree on many aspects of pitching. Having daddy work with daughter doesn't necessarily mean she will not learn to pitch well.

Again, yes father/daughter can work and has worked. However she is much older than most that start and want to take it seriously so both you are your daughter are behind others who are already well into their HS careers and may be already college recruited. If that is her goal you are going to need a lot of assistance from those who know already. If she just wants to play through high school age then no big deal - it wont be important enough to go through the PC coaching effort and everything it would entail to get her to the higher travel levels that other pitchers her age may be trying to get to. That will depend on her goals.