Legal or Illegal Wind up?

[halskinner]

A pitch must start in front, be brought to the rear and released in front of the hip.

The hands come together in front, come behind the hip and then brought forward; at that point the ball must be immediately released for delivery or its an IP.

Hands together or not, you cannot make a motion to pitch without immediately delivering the ball for delivery. Starting with the hands seperatedin front, bringing both to the rear and then forward, they must deliver the pitch or its an IP for making the motion to pitch and not delivering the ball.

 

[chinamigarden]

not to derail this thread, but I have a similar Q.

A fellow coach told me a tale last night of a pitcher his team faced,
that pitched in a very legal and pretty standard way with her fastball,
but on her change, she actually released the ball at the forward/upswing point of her windmill (after backswing) and then continued with the windmill motion after release. So, more like a sling-shot delivery for the change, but then continued the motion like a windmill afterward.

obviously a ploy to confuse the batter, which it did, and just about everyone else in attendance.

Legal?
apparently the ump had no problem with it.

She is OK right up until she continues with her circle after the release.

 

[Bigclubswinger]

All this is very confusing actually. I went back to the NFHS rulebook in the context of this discussion and I think it is an illegal pitch.

Rule 6.1 says the pitcher shall take a position on the plate with shoulders in line with first and third then
b. While in this position, the pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal from the catcher.
c. After completing "b" above the pitcher shall bring the hands together in front of the body for not less than one second and not more than 10 seconds before releasing the ball. The hands may be motionless or moving.

So it would be an illegal pitch if the pitcher did not bring the hands together in front of the body after taking the signal and instead started the first wind up. I guess I am not agreeing with you Comp. Once they get on the mound and take the signal they need to bring the hands together by my interpretation of NFHS. They can't do anything they want before bringing the hands together.

Also rule 6.4 says
The pitcher may use any windup desired provided:
a - no motion to pitch is made without immediately delivering the ball to the batter
b - the pitcher does not use a rocker action in which, after having the ball in both hands in pitching position, she removes one hand from the ball, takes a backward and forward swing and returns the ball to both hands in front of the body.
c - the pitcher does not use a windup in which there is a stop or reversal of the forward motion.

So I believe the pitcher needs to bring the hands together after taking the sign. If after this they go back, forward and then back again before beginning the windmill then they would violate rule 6.4c and 6.4a and possibly 6.4b if the hands came back together.

Anyone disagree? (I actually disagree with this myself later on keep reading)

 

[Comp]

The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and then separated. The wording about making a motion to pitch and not immediately delivering the ball has to do with a pitcher separating the hands and then not immediately delivering the ball, such has separating and doing nothing, separating and making a stop in motion etc.

The pitcher did take a signal and did bring the hands together in front of the body, and the hands may be in motion as they are brought together. I have absolutely nothing based on the description of the pitching motion in the original post. I have seen many girls pitch with a similar motion.

 

[Comp]

Once again, everything prior to the hands being brought together means nothing. The pitch does not start until the hands have touched and then separated. You cannot have a motion to pitch until the pitch has actually started, and if the hands havent touched, the pitch hasnt started.

 

[Bigclubswinger]

Once again, everything prior to the hands being brought together means nothing. The pitch does not start until the hands have touched and then separated. You cannot have a motion to pitch until the pitch has actually started, and if the hands havent touched, the pitch hasnt started.

LOL I've learned enough to know that the pitcher should change the motion regardless because I'm sure umpires have just as many different opinions and some ump somewhere would call it illegal....probably at the worst possible time after it hadn't been called by others.

I believe the intent of the rules would be that the pitcher should bring their hands together immediately after taking the signal and once a forward motion begins it should not be reversed. I could not argue against an ump calling this double motion an illegal pitch. It could obviously confuse the batter's timing once they see the ball coming forward and it should be illegal. I don't see anyone at any accomplished level using this double motion.

I guess I might call the guy at the state athletic association in charge of softball and get his word.

 

[Comp]

I would find it hard to believe on the two "up to chest and back" swings that the hands don't graze each other twice.

And if they do touch together the first time you would have an illegal pitch once the pitcher brought arm forward and touched the hands together again without delivering the pitch.

 

[inde53546]

Does the pitcher stand there taking the sign w the ball at side in her throwing hand or is the ball in her glove? If the ball is in her glove while taking signs she would have to bring her hands together to get the ball which would start the pitch correct?

 

[halskinner]

Once again, everything prior to the hands being brought together means nothing. The pitch does not start until the hands have touched and then separated. You cannot have a motion to pitch until the pitch has actually started, and if the hands havent touched, the pitch hasnt started.

Not quite. You cannot make any motion to pitch without immediately delivering the ball to the batter.

Even if the hands are never brought together; if the ball goes from front, to the rear and again to front, it MUST be delivered at that moment because that IS a motion to pitch

 

[Comp]

Hal, what part of the pitch doesnt start until the hands are brought together and separate is so hard to understand? And, if what you say is true, once the pitcher is engaged with the pitching plate and brings the hands forward to bring them together, by your definition she has begun her forward motion and could not swing the arm to the rear without violating the reversal of direction rule.

I have made inquiries of a few of my fellow officials and they have all agreed with my interpretation. While it may be a lot of wasted movement on the part of the pitcher and look strange, until she actually brings the hands together the pitch has not started.