Legal or Illegal Wind up?

[Bigclubswinger]

I've searched the forums here but am still not sure about the answer to my specific question so wanted to try a new post. My daughter's middle school team (NFHS rules) has two young pitchers that are beginning to learn to pitch. Each of these young ladies has what I would call a double windup.
1 - They begin with the hands separated and bring the ball up to about chest height.
2 - They bring the ball down and back to move the ball past the hip.
3 - The ball moves forward past the hip about chest high.
4 - They reverse the ball down and back again past the hip.
5 - They move the ball forward and complete one windmill rotation and deliver the pitch.

My first question is specifically on the 2 backswings before delivery (let's forget about the ball needing to be in the glove right now for this discussion). Is it illegal to take 2 backswings?

Thanks!

 

[Ken B]

The key is the hands being together. Once the hands separate, the ball hand can only swing back once. If the hands remain together, about anything is legal.

 

[corlay]

not to derail this thread, but I have a similar Q.

A fellow coach told me a tale last night of a pitcher his team faced,
that pitched in a very legal and pretty standard way with her fastball,
but on her change, she actually released the ball at the forward/upswing point of her windmill (after backswing) and then continued with the windmill motion after release. So, more like a sling-shot delivery for the change, but then continued the motion like a windmill afterward.

obviously a ploy to confuse the batter, which it did, and just about everyone else in attendance.

Legal?
apparently the ump had no problem with it.

 

[Ken B]

Not legal. I believe all the rule sets do not allow a circle after releasing the ball.

 

[Bigclubswinger]

The key is the hands being together. Once the hands separate, the ball hand can only swing back once. If the hands remain together, about anything is legal.

That's part of the problem. The hands never come together to begin with or only come together between the first and second backswing.

Let's assume that the hands start together and she takes two backswings. This is illegal because once the ball comes out of the glove and starts moving forward the direction cannot be reversed, correct?

 

[Ken B]

What happens before the hands coming together is pre-motion and I believe is pretty much wide open. There is a line in some (all?) rule sets that says something about not making a motion to pitch without delivering the ball, but I think debating that would be a big can-o-worms. The key is the hands coming together. Once they come together, they can:
-Swing back once and deliver (slingshot
-Swing back once and complete a single windmill
-Complete a single windmill.

 

[Comp]

As long as the hands are not brought together the pitcher can do pretty much what they want. But, once the hands are brought together and separated, they can backswing but once the hand starts forward they may not reverse direction.

As for the post by corlay, the pitch you have described is called an ephus pitch and is illegal. The arm may not continue to make a rotation once the ball has been released, below is a video put out by NFHS showing an example.

 

[Bigclubswinger]

As long as the hands are not brought together the pitcher can do pretty much what they want. But, once the hands are brought together and separated, they can backswing but once the hand starts forward they may not reverse direction.

So if a pitcher starts with hands separated and brings the ball back past her hip and then comes forward and brings the hands together before coming back again it just becomes a judgment call on whether the hands were together for at least one second (NFHS)? I read somewhere that ASA clarified that the hands coming together is considered good enough and weren't going to time the 1 second?

 

[Comp]

All the rule sets say pretty much the same thing about bringing the hands together for 1 second. It is impossible for an umpire to know if it was .5 seconds, .9 seconds or 1.1 seconds. Basically we are instructed if the hands touch together the pitcher has satisfied the requirement of bringing the hands together for 1 second. Again, if the pitcher has not touched the hands together they can do pretty much anything they want. The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and separated. Once they do, the are bound be all the rule requirements of the delivery of the pitch.

 

[Bigclubswinger]

All the rule sets say pretty much the same thing about bringing the hands together for 1 second. It is impossible for an umpire to know if it was .5 seconds, .9 seconds or 1.1 seconds. Basically we are instructed if the hands touch together the pitcher has satisfied the requirement of bringing the hands together for 1 second. Again, if the pitcher has not touched the hands together they can do pretty much anything they want. The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and separated. Once they do, the are bound be all the rule requirements of the delivery of the pitch.

Thanks Comp! Very helpful!