Not the case here! These were informal multi-team settings where numerous umpires were in attentance, rotating in and out of the many short scrimmages to satisfy their annual pre-season practice requirement in our state. Lots of healthy discussion took place among umpires and coaches. It was apparant that our local umpires have so far received little or no guidance on interpretation of this rule. Hopefully the availablity of this video will help the situation.Or none Would give their answer.
who knows why they wouldn't
but...
sometimes when an Umpire gives their reasoning it opens up the opportunity for debate.
Notice some umpires will not give their reasoning for that reason.
Leaping? Or replanting?
- Thread starter Jhs
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Right now I'm wondering how the other various softball associations are going to rule on this, including the NCAA.
- May 13, 2023
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Ahhh
jury of their peers...
Just my hunch, I don't think we're going to get consistency on this for quite some time. I think we'll get umpires who call it because they saw the pivot foot move way off the rubber, and they may still refer to it as crow-hop. Then we'll get other umpires who won't call anything because it's going to be a hard one to see and call in real time, and they may not be able to fully explain what they're calling.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I agree, and this is why I told Jason Iuli (Powerhouse Mechanics) that this new trend he's on could end up biting him in the butt. Regardless of what the rule is, should be, or the spirit it was written in, it will ultimately come down to the umpire's discretion. So does 90% of the other things in the game: base runners leaving early, slappers out of the box, fair/foul balls, strikes/balls, etc. these are all examples of what comes down to umpire discretion. The strikezone in the rulebook says letters to the knees is a strike, yet umpires routinely call pitches "high" which are not above the letters. In their discretion, the pitch was high therefore it's a ball.
I can tell you from 1st hand experience, it can be very hard to change how one pitches to conform to the umpire's calls. This is especially true when it comes to mechanics. You play in #1 tournament and the umps call nothing. Then go play in the next state over and the umps call everything illegal. Will that pitcher be able to adjust? I'm here to tell you it's not easy to do. It's extremely likely that girls will have different pitching motions, in the same tournament but with different umpires simply based on what the umpire considers legal and illegal. And ultimately it comes down to his/her decision.
- Apr 14, 2022
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I am sorry but the clarification video is a replant. The difference is usually if the arm comes up with the knee.
The loop hole that pitchers will delay motion after separation, since separation is start of pitch.
Wow they messed this up.
I think it was mentioned, I do not see men gaining front foot distance. It appears the are gaining from a push while in down swing.
The loop hole that pitchers will delay motion after separation, since separation is start of pitch.
Wow they messed this up.
I think it was mentioned, I do not see men gaining front foot distance. It appears the are gaining from a push while in down swing.
- May 13, 2023
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That is an adjustment within the rule set.
- Aug 21, 2008
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So, I watched the video now. And, my head is spinning.
As I've said, I think the biggest part that's confusing is that term "2nd push". Nobody, and I mean Nobody, would actually do a 2nd push. This video is simply ridiculous. Please imagine someone jumping, like the girl in the video, landing then jumping again. It's simply preposterous. At the 3:12 second mark of the video the guy says "there was no replant of the pivot foot". HUH?? Is he watching the same thing as me? This girl is clearly jumping landing then throwing.
If they want that to be legal, then Ok. I'm fine with it. But, this nonsense about a "2nd push" and that she's got no replant of the pivot foot is absolutely ridiculous.
Every single crow hopper lands (replants) the pivot foot prior to the pitch, giving them upwards of 3 feet closer to the plate at the release. If I was an umpire and saw that video, I'd be twice as confused. If you rewatch the video, the ball is in her hand at about the 12:00 position as the back foot lands during the 1/2 speed reply of the pitch, at the 3:06 mark. That means her back foot (pivot foot) has landed, yet the ball is still in her hand. I'm not sure a more clear example of a crow hop has ever been shown on video. And, again, I'm ok with it if that's what they're going to allow. But, lets call it what it is. There's never been a 2nd push from anyone who crow hopped. Do they honestly think someone is going to jump off the rubber without having started their arm circle, land with the pivot foot, then start the actual pitching motion with a full arm circle after the back foot has already landed 3 feet closer??????? This is beyond crazy. I don't envy the umpires and coaches who are all going to have opinions about what is legal and illegal based off this video. Wow.
As I've said, I think the biggest part that's confusing is that term "2nd push". Nobody, and I mean Nobody, would actually do a 2nd push. This video is simply ridiculous. Please imagine someone jumping, like the girl in the video, landing then jumping again. It's simply preposterous. At the 3:12 second mark of the video the guy says "there was no replant of the pivot foot". HUH?? Is he watching the same thing as me? This girl is clearly jumping landing then throwing.
If they want that to be legal, then Ok. I'm fine with it. But, this nonsense about a "2nd push" and that she's got no replant of the pivot foot is absolutely ridiculous.
Every single crow hopper lands (replants) the pivot foot prior to the pitch, giving them upwards of 3 feet closer to the plate at the release. If I was an umpire and saw that video, I'd be twice as confused. If you rewatch the video, the ball is in her hand at about the 12:00 position as the back foot lands during the 1/2 speed reply of the pitch, at the 3:06 mark. That means her back foot (pivot foot) has landed, yet the ball is still in her hand. I'm not sure a more clear example of a crow hop has ever been shown on video. And, again, I'm ok with it if that's what they're going to allow. But, lets call it what it is. There's never been a 2nd push from anyone who crow hopped. Do they honestly think someone is going to jump off the rubber without having started their arm circle, land with the pivot foot, then start the actual pitching motion with a full arm circle after the back foot has already landed 3 feet closer??????? This is beyond crazy. I don't envy the umpires and coaches who are all going to have opinions about what is legal and illegal based off this video. Wow.
- May 13, 2021
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There will be a lot of confusion at first, once the dust settles there will never be an illegal pitch called again as long as they throw in underhanded.
- Jan 22, 2011
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Interestingly, according to a video USA Softball released about two months ago, this pitcher is legal (Example 3). Rumor is USA Softball is working on a video that will show what they consider illegal. At an USA Umpire school in late January they said it might have something to the pitcher's hand having to be past the ear before her pivot foot lands. We shall see.
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