i agree........
IR1, IR2, and IR3 Getting better
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i agree........
LMAO! Nanogoof correcting Boardmember on pitching. Gotta love it! Ban time yet?
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
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For those of you following. Bill's assertion (correctly) is that the best pitchers in the world "figured out naturally" or "on their own" how to succeed using I/R, even if their original mechanics may have been flawed. He basically said they "had to figure out" how to use the I/R method in order to reach the highest levels...........
What he said is not incorrect.........And is NOT why I called BS.........
However, my point is that it is presented as a "rebuttal" to Frozen Rope's assertion that TRAINING I/R is important. Bill's rebuttal seemed to assert that it is needless to train I/R because it came natural or was eventually figured out through trial and error (in Bill's case and many others including myself)...........
That's where I call BS...........The simple fact is, that after extensive research (by myself for example in exposing it here) on how I/R works, we now HAVE the information at our fingertips (pun intended) on how these elite athletes gained their successes..........And we KNOW HOW TO TRAIN IT...........
Claiming that is a natural "progression" to greatness is no excuse TO NOT put that knowledge to use from the very start.........
Because bottom line is..........What the greats figured out was HOW TO THROW SOFTBALL UNDERHAND CORRECTLY.......Despite what THEY thought they knew/didn't know about the skill.........
And now we have ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE of that skill........And we have it IN ADVANCE of the learning curve.........
FYI........I never thought Bill didn't agree with I/R..........I know he does agree with it's existance in high level mechanics......
My point was that his post seem directed toward a reasoning for NOT training I/R as a specific requirement in learning the skill of fast pitch, the same as we teach grip, stand, drive, plant and spins.........Because I/R was "natural" in the athletes who succeed at the sport..........
So I say now that we KNOW why they succeed.....And how they accomplish it.......Why would we NOT train that part of the "formula for success".........When it is TRULY one of the MOST BASIC foundations of successful fast pitch pitching..........
Bill and I have very much the same theory on what makes a fast pitch pitchers successful.......Where we differ is that I believe in teaching the most basic foundation for ALL successful pitchers FIRST..........Because I can........I learned to teach it.........I adjusted my methodology and approach to incorporated it..........And I believe it CREATES A PATHWAY that is a shortcut previously unavailable to the "common" methodology/theory that "the best pitchers figured it out, so will my students"........
Bill has his ways of getting the most out of his students.........He's been successful at it........Why would he change his "formula for success?.............He shouldn't........Which is why I've never engaged in a conversation with him about it......
Rick Pauly has taken the opposite view. After seeing/reading what I laid out for him in the original thread, he's actually embellished it........Realizing that his DD is a POSTER CHILD for it........He's created drills that train it.......And HE USES them in his formula for success........
Which brings me to yet another point. Bill used Sarah as an example of someone who developed natural I/R........Yet Rick took the time to recognize it LONG AFTER her "natural learning curve"........And he NOW USES IT TO HIS STUDENTS ADVANTAGE by training them with the knowledge that he NOW HAS IN ADVANCE of the "natural learning curve" his DD went through.........
And why wouldn't he, is my point..........
Sorry for the long post.........
What he said is not incorrect.........And is NOT why I called BS.........
However, my point is that it is presented as a "rebuttal" to Frozen Rope's assertion that TRAINING I/R is important. Bill's rebuttal seemed to assert that it is needless to train I/R because it came natural or was eventually figured out through trial and error (in Bill's case and many others including myself)...........
That's where I call BS...........The simple fact is, that after extensive research (by myself for example in exposing it here) on how I/R works, we now HAVE the information at our fingertips (pun intended) on how these elite athletes gained their successes..........And we KNOW HOW TO TRAIN IT...........
Claiming that is a natural "progression" to greatness is no excuse TO NOT put that knowledge to use from the very start.........
Because bottom line is..........What the greats figured out was HOW TO THROW SOFTBALL UNDERHAND CORRECTLY.......Despite what THEY thought they knew/didn't know about the skill.........
And now we have ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE of that skill........And we have it IN ADVANCE of the learning curve.........
FYI........I never thought Bill didn't agree with I/R..........I know he does agree with it's existance in high level mechanics......
My point was that his post seem directed toward a reasoning for NOT training I/R as a specific requirement in learning the skill of fast pitch, the same as we teach grip, stand, drive, plant and spins.........Because I/R was "natural" in the athletes who succeed at the sport..........
So I say now that we KNOW why they succeed.....And how they accomplish it.......Why would we NOT train that part of the "formula for success".........When it is TRULY one of the MOST BASIC foundations of successful fast pitch pitching..........
Bill and I have very much the same theory on what makes a fast pitch pitchers successful.......Where we differ is that I believe in teaching the most basic foundation for ALL successful pitchers FIRST..........Because I can........I learned to teach it.........I adjusted my methodology and approach to incorporated it..........And I believe it CREATES A PATHWAY that is a shortcut previously unavailable to the "common" methodology/theory that "the best pitchers figured it out, so will my students"........
Bill has his ways of getting the most out of his students.........He's been successful at it........Why would he change his "formula for success?.............He shouldn't........Which is why I've never engaged in a conversation with him about it......
Rick Pauly has taken the opposite view. After seeing/reading what I laid out for him in the original thread, he's actually embellished it........Realizing that his DD is a POSTER CHILD for it........He's created drills that train it.......And HE USES them in his formula for success........
Which brings me to yet another point. Bill used Sarah as an example of someone who developed natural I/R........Yet Rick took the time to recognize it LONG AFTER her "natural learning curve"........And he NOW USES IT TO HIS STUDENTS ADVANTAGE by training them with the knowledge that he NOW HAS IN ADVANCE of the "natural learning curve" his DD went through.........
And why wouldn't he, is my point..........
Sorry for the long post.........
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- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,393
- 113
BM, at first I was disappointed in your calling "BS", which has a connotation to it that someone is lying. So, I tried not to take it that way. I want to answer the other posts as I go through this, I hope it's not too long.
No, I am absolutely not advocating that someone NOT train with proper mechanics. I believe (as Sluggers put in bold from my post) I did indicate that training was a must. But that doesn't answer my fundamental question, how did anyone before now ever get to a world class level before these IR drills? Whether it's Ty Stofflet or Lisa Fernandez or anyone. From personal experience, when I was a young pitcher (again 13 years old or so) all the girls in the area I lived in pitched with a "HE" style delivery and I could never understand why they did that. I watched all their crazy drills and was baffled at what they were doing. I was NEVER exposed to anyone trying to teach me "HE" so it never impeded my pitching development. And that is part of my point, especially with male pitchers, probably 99% of them pitch using "IR" because they were never taught to do otherwise. Most men never had a pitching coach, although they may have had mentors on their team.
BM, where i run into issues with the drills is not actually a problem with the drills themselves. The guy from the other day talked about having me on video telling him and his kid to forget the term IR, and I can absolutely hear myself saying that. I have said it before to others. Here is why: there have been countless times where I've seen a student for the first time and it actually looks like she's pitching with the wrong hand... like a righty pitching left handed or vice versa. Zero coordination, zero balance, all sorts of issues and problems. And when she is doing certain things I'll ask her WHY she did that (if she was taught or if she did it on her own), a overwhelming majority of girls I see are not doing ANYTHING on their own, they are taught and told to do EVERYTHING from start to finish. Leaving nothing natural or loose in her mechanics at all. So, here is a kid with all sorts of issues and all she is worried about is "IR" because dad reads this board. So, I have 2 choices: I can let her continue with this mess or I can try to rid her of some of the cluster that is in her brain and try to simplify it.
Now, this problem is not the fault of IR. It's the issue of Dad trying to put the cart ahead of horse. It's trying to make her (and dad) realize that IR is only one component of her pitching motion, not it's entirety. And if you put IR ahead of everything else and ONLY worry about that, you will end up with problems the same as you would if you went to a "HE" coach. So, I AM NOT DISCOUNTING IR OR IT"S TRAINING. I am saying there are times when that should be the last thing we worry about.
Pumpkinbear, I think you're wrong. The best pitchers of all time never learned to pitch hearing the term IR. And I absolutely was not a world class athlete. I worked very hard at what I was doing. Take a look at my body type sometime, there's not much athletic about me.
I think Madsdad hit the nail on the head.
With due respect DougRomell, no popcorn needed. I'm not going to have a clash with BM about this. I think fundamentally we teach the same things, perhaps with different terminology. We share a common enemy in "HE" pitching.
Rockettech1, thank you. You're spot on. I worked hard at it. One of the key differences between me and a lot of athletes today is I didn't divide my time between 3 sports. I did Karate since I was 9 but softball pitching came first. The 2 never conflicted. I never missed working out (pitching) for anything. I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO MAKE YOUR DAUGHTER QUIT BASKETBALL OR WHATEVER. I am telling you what I did.
Thank you Sluggers, I agree with you.
Back to BM's second post: I don't have a problem with training IR. I have a problem with people doing it before they have anything else figured out, like what hand to pitch with. But this is not the fault of IR. This is a problem of whomever is instructing this girl, not necessarily with the training.
Bill
No, I am absolutely not advocating that someone NOT train with proper mechanics. I believe (as Sluggers put in bold from my post) I did indicate that training was a must. But that doesn't answer my fundamental question, how did anyone before now ever get to a world class level before these IR drills? Whether it's Ty Stofflet or Lisa Fernandez or anyone. From personal experience, when I was a young pitcher (again 13 years old or so) all the girls in the area I lived in pitched with a "HE" style delivery and I could never understand why they did that. I watched all their crazy drills and was baffled at what they were doing. I was NEVER exposed to anyone trying to teach me "HE" so it never impeded my pitching development. And that is part of my point, especially with male pitchers, probably 99% of them pitch using "IR" because they were never taught to do otherwise. Most men never had a pitching coach, although they may have had mentors on their team.
BM, where i run into issues with the drills is not actually a problem with the drills themselves. The guy from the other day talked about having me on video telling him and his kid to forget the term IR, and I can absolutely hear myself saying that. I have said it before to others. Here is why: there have been countless times where I've seen a student for the first time and it actually looks like she's pitching with the wrong hand... like a righty pitching left handed or vice versa. Zero coordination, zero balance, all sorts of issues and problems. And when she is doing certain things I'll ask her WHY she did that (if she was taught or if she did it on her own), a overwhelming majority of girls I see are not doing ANYTHING on their own, they are taught and told to do EVERYTHING from start to finish. Leaving nothing natural or loose in her mechanics at all. So, here is a kid with all sorts of issues and all she is worried about is "IR" because dad reads this board. So, I have 2 choices: I can let her continue with this mess or I can try to rid her of some of the cluster that is in her brain and try to simplify it.
Now, this problem is not the fault of IR. It's the issue of Dad trying to put the cart ahead of horse. It's trying to make her (and dad) realize that IR is only one component of her pitching motion, not it's entirety. And if you put IR ahead of everything else and ONLY worry about that, you will end up with problems the same as you would if you went to a "HE" coach. So, I AM NOT DISCOUNTING IR OR IT"S TRAINING. I am saying there are times when that should be the last thing we worry about.
Pumpkinbear, I think you're wrong. The best pitchers of all time never learned to pitch hearing the term IR. And I absolutely was not a world class athlete. I worked very hard at what I was doing. Take a look at my body type sometime, there's not much athletic about me.
I think Madsdad hit the nail on the head.
With due respect DougRomell, no popcorn needed. I'm not going to have a clash with BM about this. I think fundamentally we teach the same things, perhaps with different terminology. We share a common enemy in "HE" pitching.
Rockettech1, thank you. You're spot on. I worked hard at it. One of the key differences between me and a lot of athletes today is I didn't divide my time between 3 sports. I did Karate since I was 9 but softball pitching came first. The 2 never conflicted. I never missed working out (pitching) for anything. I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO MAKE YOUR DAUGHTER QUIT BASKETBALL OR WHATEVER. I am telling you what I did.
Thank you Sluggers, I agree with you.
Back to BM's second post: I don't have a problem with training IR. I have a problem with people doing it before they have anything else figured out, like what hand to pitch with. But this is not the fault of IR. This is a problem of whomever is instructing this girl, not necessarily with the training.
Bill
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Wow so now you can hear yourself saying it....slingit1 you got a bad deal. Now nanoteach14 should just be banned. Thanks slingit for some great insite to bad you are no longer here. What a joke
- May 17, 2012
- 2,816
- 113
And the above quote is what it all boils down to for me. No matter what skill you are trying to teach (piano, Mathematics, hitting, etc.) you build the foundation first. You don't skip over it and "let them figure it out later".
It isn't like IR is some complicated theory that takes hours to explain. Cover it in 30 minutes and build on it.
There isn't enough quality pitching in fastpitch, and I blame it on poor coaching.
It's maddening to me why private pitching coaches not only don't want to teach correct mechanics but also advocate incorrect, opposing (hello elbow) mechanics.
If I were a paid pitching coach I would be screaming from the mountain tops that everyone else was doing it wrong. Isn't that's whats best for the sport? Perhaps it isn't best for business.
Just my observations from the outside looking in.
Bill Hillhouse says
Great posts from BM and Bill. IR must happen and does happen with every good pitch and pitcher but Bill is correct in that you will find it is only a part of the whole picture. In fact BM has addressed many other essentials in different posts on this forum. Even when you have an understanding of IR, there is a bunch that can go wrong.
Here is perspective from the very first dad to try to implement changed mechanics based on BM using the term Internal Rotation on this forum. I know I am the first here because he wrote the initial post about IR based on a discussion here on DFP of my daughters HE mechanics and my confusion about her inconsistency. She did improve with IR but she was already 15 and we mutually decided to focus on another position. We already had plenty of pitching talent on our state ranked high school team and since there are 3 outfield positions that is where we focused.
Fast forward to her younger sister. At age 8 I could see she had the right temperament to pitch. With me getting her started with IR early there would be no stopping her! This has been true...kind of.
She has had a lot off success. Good control. The addition of additional pitches. Above average speed. Lots of wins at travel and little league but we have had tons of issues not related to IR mechanics and in fact have kind of hit a wall right now at age 13. We are looking for more speed (she is somewhere between 51 - 53 based on less than Jugs quality guns) and video reveals some strange mechanical issues.
Some nasty habits have crept in. There is a position of ball thread on this forum. Through this thread I realized by DD has started a habit of bringing the ball up completely wrong and it completely is effecting everything else in the circle including IR...BM has shed great insight on this thread.
Her front leg is breaking down causing a bend at the waist. This is effecting speed for certain and more of a push. Is this a cause of problems or a result of something upstream. That is something we are working on figuring out.
The glove hand is swimming a lot but how important is this really. Looking at clips on model pitchers some swim like crazy so is it a point of emphasis or not.
The point is there is a lot to look at. Treat Internal Rotation as something that must happen in a good pitch. Not as a noun like Tia Bow. I wouldn't suggest that you tell someone: "my daughter uses the internal rotation method of pitching" but consider explaining "on a proper pitch the arm must internally rotate in this fashion to properly release the ball, not snap straight up with a forearm and wrist snap like some people teach. If you look at college pitchers, this internal rotation is what all of them do."
I have had to explain this to many parents and kids who have been taught HE mechanics and I have had to use video and patience to explain it.
Great posts from BM and Bill. IR must happen and does happen with every good pitch and pitcher but Bill is correct in that you will find it is only a part of the whole picture. In fact BM has addressed many other essentials in different posts on this forum. Even when you have an understanding of IR, there is a bunch that can go wrong.
Here is perspective from the very first dad to try to implement changed mechanics based on BM using the term Internal Rotation on this forum. I know I am the first here because he wrote the initial post about IR based on a discussion here on DFP of my daughters HE mechanics and my confusion about her inconsistency. She did improve with IR but she was already 15 and we mutually decided to focus on another position. We already had plenty of pitching talent on our state ranked high school team and since there are 3 outfield positions that is where we focused.
Fast forward to her younger sister. At age 8 I could see she had the right temperament to pitch. With me getting her started with IR early there would be no stopping her! This has been true...kind of.
She has had a lot off success. Good control. The addition of additional pitches. Above average speed. Lots of wins at travel and little league but we have had tons of issues not related to IR mechanics and in fact have kind of hit a wall right now at age 13. We are looking for more speed (she is somewhere between 51 - 53 based on less than Jugs quality guns) and video reveals some strange mechanical issues.
Some nasty habits have crept in. There is a position of ball thread on this forum. Through this thread I realized by DD has started a habit of bringing the ball up completely wrong and it completely is effecting everything else in the circle including IR...BM has shed great insight on this thread.
Her front leg is breaking down causing a bend at the waist. This is effecting speed for certain and more of a push. Is this a cause of problems or a result of something upstream. That is something we are working on figuring out.
The glove hand is swimming a lot but how important is this really. Looking at clips on model pitchers some swim like crazy so is it a point of emphasis or not.
The point is there is a lot to look at. Treat Internal Rotation as something that must happen in a good pitch. Not as a noun like Tia Bow. I wouldn't suggest that you tell someone: "my daughter uses the internal rotation method of pitching" but consider explaining "on a proper pitch the arm must internally rotate in this fashion to properly release the ball, not snap straight up with a forearm and wrist snap like some people teach. If you look at college pitchers, this internal rotation is what all of them do."
I have had to explain this to many parents and kids who have been taught HE mechanics and I have had to use video and patience to explain it.
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I am not sure how many contributors here have extensive experience with entry level softball pitching (Little League). I coached 3 daughters through LL and continued coaching after they left. I coached for probably 8-9 years and saw over 100 girls give pitching a try. Out of all those girls only 2 threw with IR or armwhip, the rest were all bowlers. I pitched in a local modified fastpitch league and intuitively understood the difference between bowling and whipping. When I took my daughter to some local pitching coaches and they all started off with the 'wrist snap' drill I knew that something was wrong and taught her myself. When I first started teaching other girls I had a number of very good athletes who could not 'unlearn' the push down-wrist snap motion that they had been taught. The assertion that girls will naturally develop IR is not generally supported by my experience. Some will learn it and go on to pitch, the majority will become shortstops or outfielders. What interests me are the factors or causes that enable a pitcher to intuitively learn the correct action, I believe that it is when they start to learn the curve or the rise. You can't put those kinds of spin on the ball without getting and staying open, leading the downswing with a flexed elbow and have the hand under or on the side of the ball. I now start all my new students with the basic slingshot IR motion, and it's a tough sell.
ArmWhip, your experiences with daughters and other girls mirror mine. Almost every girl who plays wants to pitch yet very few realize or want to put in the time and deal with the aggravation that comes with become a serviceable pitcher--much less a top-flight pitcher. You've also come to the same conclusion on how girls (and boys) eventually find their way to proper mechanics in spite of the that bowling coaching they received early on. The rise forces them into proper mechanics. I was very good at teaching young ladies the improper technique of pitching. And had there not been a guy coaching our HS team who was a former men's pitcher I might not have ever stumbled onto IR as the proper technique. He was telling girls to wrist flip while he himself was using IR exclusively. This goes on all across the country.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Bill, thx for the response. The statement "I call BS" is NOTHING LIKE calling someone a liar. It's a friendly way of saying "hey, there's some stuff here I don't agree with"..........But I digress.......
Anyway........I TOTALLY agree with you. If you have a kid who can't even figure out if they are left handed or right handed.......I/R is the LAST THING they should be worrying about!
So I guess my bottom line is that once you figure which hand they should use to "throw the ball".......The very next thing you should do is "teach them to throw the ball correctly"..........Using proper grip and fundamentally sound arm/body mechanics. Or at least make sure they do it fundamentally "naturally"..........
I just don't get how anyone can take a kid and throw her out on the field in any position without a FUNDAMENTAL understanding of how to throw a ball properly..........Overhand OR underhand..........
And I don't understand how anyone (not you specifically) believes that if you teach a kid to "shuffle" before teaching them to "throw", that somehow knowing how to "shuffle" will lead to "naturally figuring out" how to throw.........It makes no sense to me.........And even if it did........Why would we take that path when we know how to avoid the pitfalls of being "self-taught"............
Anyway, I'm glad to hear to don't "disagree" with training I/R........I actually didn't think you did.........But saying that the best in the world figured it out on their own is not a validation that something we know they do/did shouldn't be taught........When we know how to teach it........Which I understand you agree with.........
Best Regards........Of course........
Anyway........I TOTALLY agree with you. If you have a kid who can't even figure out if they are left handed or right handed.......I/R is the LAST THING they should be worrying about!
So I guess my bottom line is that once you figure which hand they should use to "throw the ball".......The very next thing you should do is "teach them to throw the ball correctly"..........Using proper grip and fundamentally sound arm/body mechanics. Or at least make sure they do it fundamentally "naturally"..........
I just don't get how anyone can take a kid and throw her out on the field in any position without a FUNDAMENTAL understanding of how to throw a ball properly..........Overhand OR underhand..........
And I don't understand how anyone (not you specifically) believes that if you teach a kid to "shuffle" before teaching them to "throw", that somehow knowing how to "shuffle" will lead to "naturally figuring out" how to throw.........It makes no sense to me.........And even if it did........Why would we take that path when we know how to avoid the pitfalls of being "self-taught"............
Anyway, I'm glad to hear to don't "disagree" with training I/R........I actually didn't think you did.........But saying that the best in the world figured it out on their own is not a validation that something we know they do/did shouldn't be taught........When we know how to teach it........Which I understand you agree with.........
Best Regards........Of course........
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