- Sep 3, 2009
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This is tempting to me Bill even though it's probably a 90 minute drive.
Also, how can I get your newsletter?
IR style pc in northern nj /ny area?
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This is tempting to me Bill even though it's probably a 90 minute drive.
Also, how can I get your newsletter?
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,391
- 113
you sign up on my website for the newsletter. I'll post my latest newsletter on a new thread so you can see what I wrote about the 2 types of parents: The ones that will drive 5 hours one way for a 1 hour lesson with me vs. the ones that will say 30 minutes is much too far for a silly pitching lesson. It goes to show everyone prioritizes softball in different ways. For some people, softball is LIFE and for others... it's much more serious than that!!! ha ha.
90 minutes vs. hello elbow. Hmmm
Bill
90 minutes vs. hello elbow. Hmmm
Bill
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,391
- 113
I will have to do 2 parts of the newsletter since it's too large to post in one thread.
Bill
Bill
- Sep 3, 2009
- 261
- 18
LOL....well, my 12 yo is well beyond the hello elbow stage. She actually has a very natural and strong arm whip, thanks in no small part to this site. She has never had a "regular" pitching instructor although she has had the occasional private lesson with different PC's along with clinics that she has attended. Thanks to this site, your DVD, pitching clinics and some other resources along with lots of practice she has gotten to where she is without having a regular PC, which is a pretty good (but not great) 12U pitcher. I would jump at the opportunity to spend three hours in the car for a single lesson/analysis from yourself, but we have driven that far in the past and I came away thinking "tell me something I didn't already know" along with $75 less in my pocket.
Anyway, sorry to the OP for the hijack.
Gbucz
WNY native now in Charlotte, NC
Too many youngsters do not get the leg and hip drive into the pitch. HE gives them the overcompensation and gets them into fielding position. As they develop their muscle control and stop dropping HE 'slamming the door', cutting their arm short and several other bad habits they learn to adust their body for a more natural movement.
I have seen many girls think they are doing IR but they are so far open they end up locking their elbow against their side, throwing around their hip and getting hurt. They also don't develop the legs into driving because they, have to stay open, so they end up muscling it through with their shoulders. I feel HE is easier to dial back from rather than trying to correct poor leg use, throwing across the body, and muscling through.
So much of IR is 'feeling it' and most kids never learn to really feel total body control. HE forces them to get used to feeling what their body is doing. HE involves the whole body and mind to control. It gives a sturdy, predictable platform from which to build.
You cannot start riding a bike with a $600 mountain bike in the middle of the woods! Most start with training wheels and a flat surface. The training wheels get in the way of proper turns and can lead to bad habits but help by building the balance and confidence along with control. Once the training wheels are off it is up to the individual to develop the skills neccessary to lean into a turn, brake smoothly and pedal over different terrain. When all of that is 2nd nature they get the mountain bike and head to the trails.
With HE as the training wheels pitching and can be cumbersome and flawed but the pitcher is able to involve their mind and entire body in the experience. As they sharpen their skills the 'HE training wheels come off' and they learn how much to open, how much to close, how much follow through to use, timing the leg drive and foot plant with the arm motion and then smoothing it all out.
HE started my daughter out but did no damage to her. Several of her competitors have dropped out of pitching because of injury, frustration with control, lack of pitch development, not being able field properly and poor balance of muscles all because they never developed a full body pitching motion.
Could my DD go back to HE now - NEVER!!! It feels too awkward but she knows that is where she started. Try riding a bike with training wheels now - I have - you want to talk about odd and dangerous feelings! I know it is neccessary for first time learners and accept it for what it is. First time riders are not slowed down and they don't have to unlearn anything.
I hope this gets my idea across and does not cause a stream of contradictions and confusion.
Gbucz,
When you're talking about locking the elbow against their side and pitching around the hip, do you mean like this lady?
I'm struggling with the idea of teaching something mechanically backwards and hard on the arm (HE) for a greater purpose. By allowing natural motion to occur, isn't it easier to focus on the other things? Maybe it would help me if you clarified what HE is from your perspective?
Also, you mentioned at the beginning of your last post that too many kids don't use their legs and hips. Can you explain this a little more?
Thanks,
Ken
When you're talking about locking the elbow against their side and pitching around the hip, do you mean like this lady?
I'm struggling with the idea of teaching something mechanically backwards and hard on the arm (HE) for a greater purpose. By allowing natural motion to occur, isn't it easier to focus on the other things? Maybe it would help me if you clarified what HE is from your perspective?
Also, you mentioned at the beginning of your last post that too many kids don't use their legs and hips. Can you explain this a little more?
Thanks,
Ken
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Carly
Pitching Coach
Gbucz, the problem I have with your analogy is that starting with HE and abandoning it is NOT like removing training wheels... it's more like leaving them on and trying to bike normally without letting them touch the ground. Once a kid has learned something and it's ingrained in her muscle memory, it's really hard to just toss that aside. If your daughter has been able to do that successfully, that's fantastic, and you should be proud because I think she's a unique case. I know from experience that most girls have a ton of trouble with it. I've gotten lots of students who have come to me after learning HE wanting to be "fixed" and none of them have an easy road... some never get it. I've also taught many kids from scratch and it's harder at first and they sometimes struggle and take a longer time to become game-ready pitchers, but once they develop they're miles ahead of the others.
I PMed the original poster right away, but now it seems like there are more people in the area with the same question so I'll repeat: my team of instructors teaches IR and we're based in Westchester. I also know we're not the only ones in the area who do; there are many good pitchers who I didn't teach
I PMed the original poster right away, but now it seems like there are more people in the area with the same question so I'll repeat: my team of instructors teaches IR and we're based in Westchester. I also know we're not the only ones in the area who do; there are many good pitchers who I didn't teach
Gbucz
WNY native now in Charlotte, NC
Carly and Ken,
I'll try to answer both your posts here. Carly the training wheels analogy works like you said. They rely on the boundaries at first then get to the point of not letting them touch the ground. You are never going to turn without the touching the ground but you can get the balance and control necessary to go straight. In HE, as I teach it, you start square to catcher throwing both arms backward then start forward with your hands and stride foot together getting sideways into the 'Power X' or 'K'. When the front foot hits the ground accelerate the arm, with the ball pointed backward, down in the back releasing at the bottom with a 6-12 rotation after the wrist snaps forward and the inside fold of the elbow points toward the catcher. The arm continues forward until parallel to the ground as the drag foot is pulled forward to square (slam the door) with the catcher. the arm is then bent at the elbow with the hand meeting it's shoulder - thus 'hello elbow'.
The pushback of the stride foot is what I see girls miss the most. They land on the front leg and fail to drive their hips through generating the IR power. "slam the door" teaches them that if they drive backward with the landing foot while dragging the other one forward they are generating an internal torque or twist with the legs and hips.
HE follow through forces them to keep their arm moving foward so they don't shorten their arm and slowing it down prior to release. As they let go of the ball many will curl up the arm instead of following through. They get to feel the ball leave and pushing the elbow forward gets them to feel the linear part of the release.
As the girls get used to these feelings of drive and extension they can forget about the exagerrated motions as they become more natural. The feeling of drive and extension are now established and have a concrete meaning in their body control.
In IR first I see too many girls open up and then stay there as they glide forward and throw across their body. The bring their back foot forward to touch the landing foot then move sideways after the ball leaves. They never use their hips or a push back and when you tell them to drive their hips is has little meaning or worse they think you mean getting over the top of the leg.
There are several other things that develop including hauling the shoulder through and bending forward in an effort to get more speed. My point is they think they are doing what you said but they cannot base it on anything. In HE they gain these new feelings that we can build on easier.
As for locking the elbow in the Uneo video - I would say sort of... She does lock the elbow in but she is closing her hips and throwing 'around her hip' while imparting the forarm rotation. Her arm continues on the path though the linear portion of the pitch happens so it all works for her. The girls I was refering to typically stop the elbow when it touches their hip and curl up the arm thinking they are following through. Their upper arm is stopped for the release and follow through. They may pull their shoulder forward some at this point thinking they are still following through as well.
I hope this makes sense as it is 11:30 est and I have papers to grade!!
I'll try to answer both your posts here. Carly the training wheels analogy works like you said. They rely on the boundaries at first then get to the point of not letting them touch the ground. You are never going to turn without the touching the ground but you can get the balance and control necessary to go straight. In HE, as I teach it, you start square to catcher throwing both arms backward then start forward with your hands and stride foot together getting sideways into the 'Power X' or 'K'. When the front foot hits the ground accelerate the arm, with the ball pointed backward, down in the back releasing at the bottom with a 6-12 rotation after the wrist snaps forward and the inside fold of the elbow points toward the catcher. The arm continues forward until parallel to the ground as the drag foot is pulled forward to square (slam the door) with the catcher. the arm is then bent at the elbow with the hand meeting it's shoulder - thus 'hello elbow'.
The pushback of the stride foot is what I see girls miss the most. They land on the front leg and fail to drive their hips through generating the IR power. "slam the door" teaches them that if they drive backward with the landing foot while dragging the other one forward they are generating an internal torque or twist with the legs and hips.
HE follow through forces them to keep their arm moving foward so they don't shorten their arm and slowing it down prior to release. As they let go of the ball many will curl up the arm instead of following through. They get to feel the ball leave and pushing the elbow forward gets them to feel the linear part of the release.
As the girls get used to these feelings of drive and extension they can forget about the exagerrated motions as they become more natural. The feeling of drive and extension are now established and have a concrete meaning in their body control.
In IR first I see too many girls open up and then stay there as they glide forward and throw across their body. The bring their back foot forward to touch the landing foot then move sideways after the ball leaves. They never use their hips or a push back and when you tell them to drive their hips is has little meaning or worse they think you mean getting over the top of the leg.
There are several other things that develop including hauling the shoulder through and bending forward in an effort to get more speed. My point is they think they are doing what you said but they cannot base it on anything. In HE they gain these new feelings that we can build on easier.
As for locking the elbow in the Uneo video - I would say sort of... She does lock the elbow in but she is closing her hips and throwing 'around her hip' while imparting the forarm rotation. Her arm continues on the path though the linear portion of the pitch happens so it all works for her. The girls I was refering to typically stop the elbow when it touches their hip and curl up the arm thinking they are following through. Their upper arm is stopped for the release and follow through. They may pull their shoulder forward some at this point thinking they are still following through as well.
I hope this makes sense as it is 11:30 est and I have papers to grade!!
Gbucz,
In the same way that training wheels are frowned upon in the cycling community; bowling the ball, HE and slamming the door are discouraged in the softball community.
In teaching someone to ride a bike, there is no benefit to using training wheels that outweighs the risk, and the untraining that must take place when they are removed. I believe the same is true in pitching.
The bowling style release, the hello elbow follow through and slamming the hips and shoulders may give a result that is pleasing to an adult, but later, is very frustrating for a child who may want to move on to a form that will help her advance. The bowling release, HE follow through and hip rotation to generate speed are not used by 95% (or higher) of elite pitchers.
Please take some time to look through the videos in the Model Pitchers thread. Look closely at their arms through release. Look at their hips. Look at how they generate power from a strong forward drive, then allow a loose arm whip to occur against the foot plant. In the same way there is nothing added to a bull whip once the arm transfers the energy, pitcher should not attempt to create power by any other means than using good form.
Ken
In the same way that training wheels are frowned upon in the cycling community; bowling the ball, HE and slamming the door are discouraged in the softball community.
In teaching someone to ride a bike, there is no benefit to using training wheels that outweighs the risk, and the untraining that must take place when they are removed. I believe the same is true in pitching.
The bowling style release, the hello elbow follow through and slamming the hips and shoulders may give a result that is pleasing to an adult, but later, is very frustrating for a child who may want to move on to a form that will help her advance. The bowling release, HE follow through and hip rotation to generate speed are not used by 95% (or higher) of elite pitchers.
Please take some time to look through the videos in the Model Pitchers thread. Look closely at their arms through release. Look at their hips. Look at how they generate power from a strong forward drive, then allow a loose arm whip to occur against the foot plant. In the same way there is nothing added to a bull whip once the arm transfers the energy, pitcher should not attempt to create power by any other means than using good form.
Ken
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Gbucz
WNY native now in Charlotte, NC
I respect your opinions but reserve the right to my own. I would never dream of teaching a small child to ride a bike without training wheels. I normally teach girls who are just starting to pitch and will continue teaching my version of HE then dialing it into IR later. It has worked for my DD and I have not hampered any student in reaching their potential yet. IR is the end result and by high school all of my pitchers have been effective.
After reviewing the videos I am not convinced that many girls did not start HE or slam the door. My whole point was that HE PCs are not teaching wrong. Each pitcher will take what they need from the experience on their way to eventually developing an IR technique they can be successful with.
After reviewing the videos I am not convinced that many girls did not start HE or slam the door. My whole point was that HE PCs are not teaching wrong. Each pitcher will take what they need from the experience on their way to eventually developing an IR technique they can be successful with.
