IR, Hello Elbow, etc.

[drc9805]

Do these terms really only apply to how to throw a fastball? It seems/looks they go away with different pitches such as the rise and others. I'm just curious and would love to hear any and all feedback.

 

[BoardMember]

Nope........I/R applies to every pitch thrown correctly to one degree or another.........

 

[ArmWhip]

The one exception would be the 'push' change up, hand on top of the ball coming down, no IR.

 

[drc9805]

I do see it and understand it with a fastball based on Boardmember's description but it does seem like it would be irrelevant when it comes to other pitches. Like on the rise, the only place I see any part of it being relevant is having your hand under the ball leading/pulling down with the elbow but once you get to the hip you will be rotating your wrist in such a way that it seems like it would eliminate IR at that point.

 

[howellhandmade]

Without internal rotation there is no elbow lag (or leading elbow), which is a major contributor to pitching speed, whether the hand comes over, under, inside, or outside the ball at release and follow-through. I have yet to see a video of a top pitcher throwing any pitch -- curve, screwball, rise, drop -- without at least some elbow lag.

 

[Lozza]

I have a question, as I was discussing this with a fellow coach.

It used to be taught that the hand would be pointing over the shoulder (which is what I think is meant be hello elbow) She now teaches to have the hand pointing at the nose. (NOT in a fist) She uses this for all her beginners. Thoughts?

 

[howellhandmade]

How does elbow lag mean the same thing as IR? Elbow lag has been around since the slingshot and been photographed since Joan Joyce. And no one said oh that's rotation of the forearm, or whatever?

My apologies for speaking ahead of my betters, but here goes. My daughter's first PC taught that at 3 o'clock, meaning the pitching arm pointing straight at second base, the hand should be "behind the ball," or pointing straight down at the ground. Actually, she taught that the hand should be behind the ball from 12 o'clock, but that's water under the bridge.

Very well. Holding the arm in that 3 o'clock location with palm/ball facing down, bend your elbow 90 degrees. Your forearm is now pointing toward third base. If you could throw like that, it would be an illegal pitch. In order to obtain elbow lag as the arm moves through its arc toward release, the forearm must rotate. With the arm at 3 o'clock, if the ball faces third base, it is possible to bend the elbow, creating lag, without the hand being appreciably further from the body than the elbow -- or at least not far enough to be called. As the arm whips and the elbow straightens, the forearm rotates internally, bringing the ball around. Naturally. What happens during and after the release, depending on the desired spin, is not necessarily internal rotation -- that has already occurred.

Of COURSE it's been around since the slingshot and they never called it anything, they never had to. Every good pitcher does it; the only reason it's taken notice of and called anything NOW is because of all the blasted pitching instructors teaching their students NOT to do it, to get their hands behind the ball on the downswing, which locks the elbow and kills speed. According to their teaching, the arm is either straight, or the elbow lags through some sort of double-jointed magic while the ball stays facing down, and the real power adder is the wrist snap, of which the student is supposed to do googleplex per day.

Screwball, I like you -- as much as it's possible to like anybody based on what they choose to write on an internet forum -- and I'm sure you know WAY more about pitching than I do. This is just what I understand based on what I've seen and read as a father of a pitcher who started out trying to answer one simple question: "Why can't I find video of a single National-level pitcher doing what my daughter's PC wants her to do?" If that PC had understood that the forearm has to rotate in order for the elbow to bend as the arm moves in its arc, we'd still be going to her and my daughter would be much further along as a pitcher. If I have misunderstood what internal rotation is all about, perhaps I'm not the only one.

 

[BoardMember]

In order to obtain elbow lag as the arm moves through its arc toward release, the forearm must rotate. With the arm at 3 o'clock, if the ball faces third base, it is possible to bend the elbow, creating lag, without the hand being appreciably further from the body than the elbow -- or at least not far enough to be called. As the arm whips and the elbow straightens, the forearm rotates internally, bringing the ball around. Naturally. What happens during and after the release, depending on the desired spin, is not necessarily internal rotation -- that has already occurred.

Of COURSE it's been around since the slingshot and they never called it anything, they never had to. Every good pitcher does it; the only reason it's taken notice of and called anything NOW is because of all the blasted pitching instructors teaching their students NOT to do it, to get their hands behind the ball on the downswing, which locks the elbow and kills speed. According to their teaching, the arm is either straight, or the elbow lags through some sort of double-jointed magic while the ball stays facing down, and the real power adder is the wrist snap, of which the student is supposed to do googleplex per day.

Screwball, I like you -- as much as it's possible to like anybody based on what they choose to write on an internet forum -- and I'm sure you know WAY more about pitching than I do. This is just what I understand based on what I've seen and read as a father of a pitcher who started out trying to answer one simple question: "Why can't I find video of a single National-level pitcher doing what my daughter's PC wants her to do?" If that PC had understood that the forearm has to rotate in order for the elbow to bend as the arm moves in its arc, we'd still be going to her and my daughter would be much further along as a pitcher. If I have misunderstood what internal rotation is all about, perhaps I'm not the only one.

Very good post Howell...........And as I said in my first post in this thread........I/R exists TO SOME DEGREE on EVERY pitch thrown properly..........

Incluing RISE BALL........This is Bill demo'ing his "2 ball" rise drill.......Notice the amount of I/R shows more then 180 degrees of rotation as his bicep and forearm are EXternally rotated toward 2nd base starting in the downswing.......And end up INternally rotating toward his glove hand thru release.........I/R is not "restricted" to the forearm......But includes the humerus (bicep) rotating INternally in the shoulder socket as well......

In fact........When I first introduced INternal rotation.........It was during a rebuttal where several well known instructors were insisting that the thumb remained pointing toward 3rd base through release and up the circle..........

It was then I pointed out that while that "felt" like the goal.........In actuality.......Riseball was thrown with the thumb moving from pointing to second around to pointing toward first thru release.........

Someone asked me to explain INternal Rotation and describe some drills that would "capture" the natural actions that occur.......I did........And explained 2 drills I've used for 20 years to create the natural action that allows a pitcher to "THROW THE BALL UNDERHAND".....Regardless of what pitch was being thrown.......And the thread took off.......

I can't tell you how many requests I've gotten since that thread (and the many other follow-ups) to write books, make DVD's and create a website dedicated to the art of "throwing underhand"........

I can't........I don't have the time to invest........So I chose to share it here........For everyone to enjoy.......And to give everyone the tools to further the game from the pitching stand point..........

I believe.....At least through this forum........I've accomplished that goal.........

This NEW and more detailed understanding of the most BASIC mechanic that creates "better" pitchers has certainly made it's mark here..........

That's good enough for me..........

Cheers.........

P.S. Sometimes the arguments that pop up here against I/R remind me of the arguments against the theory of evolution..........

Some just have their own belief system.......

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

the forearm rotates internally

When speaking of IR, relative to the throwing 'arm', one is generally speaking of the rotation of the upper arm (i.e., the humerus). The terms 'pronation' and 'supination' are generally used to describe the rotation of the forearm ... not IR.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Notice that BM speaks of the "bicep & forearm" being internally rotated or externally rotated. IMO he's speaking of them being rotated as a unit ... where the rotation is that of the upper arm within the shoulder socket.

This below is Internal Rotation of the 'upper arm' ...